help with chord

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almann1979
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help with chord

Post by almann1979 » December 12th, 2009, 12:49 pm

i am pushing myself at the minute - i am learning 2 very different pieces - canon rock is one, and angelina by tommy emmanuel is the other.

i am using a guitar pro tab for the tommy emmanuel piece, but i also want to understand what he is doing - not just copy.

at one point, he plays the following notes together - C# E Bb.

now, i realise this might be 3 notes from an extended chord - (as i know they dont make a normal major or minor chord on thier own).

what options have i got here, what is the most realistic chord that these notes are being played as?
Last edited by almann1979 on December 12th, 2009, 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I like to play that guitar. I have to stare at it while I'm playing it because I'm not very good at playing it."
Noel Gallagher (who took the words right out of my mouth)

dhodge
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Re: help woth chord

Post by dhodge » December 12th, 2009, 1:44 pm

Could be all sorts of things. But since you listed the C# first, I'll go with C#dim7 (C#, E, G, Bb), just for the sake of getting the discussion rolling.

When do we get to hear you play Angelina? :wink:

Peace

almann1979
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Re: help with chord

Post by almann1979 » December 12th, 2009, 1:59 pm

:lol: thanks David and good question - but in truth the answer is i will never in my life be able to play angelina properly, it seems so far out of my league at the minute.

The reason i am learning it though is that i love the melody. I dont usually get hooked by melody a lot, but i havent been able to get this song out of my head for months - so i am dumbing it down and making my own simplified version of it which doesnt require an independant thumb or talent beyond my ability :D

But, this is why i need to understand the chords the tab is based on, because without understanding that i am going to struggle coming up with my own arrangement.

I realise how arrogant it sounds for me to say i want to rearrange something by Tommy Emmanuel - but i must stress the reason for me rearranging this is simplification only - i would never dream that i could improve anything he has done :D

by the way, i did list the C# first, but i dont know why, the note in the bass was the Bb, on the a string 1st fret.

Al
"I like to play that guitar. I have to stare at it while I'm playing it because I'm not very good at playing it."
Noel Gallagher (who took the words right out of my mouth)

dhodge
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Re: help with chord

Post by dhodge » December 12th, 2009, 2:08 pm

Re-arranging something is hardly arrogant. We all do it in order to play the music we love. If you're practicing and playing more in order to make it work, I don't think anyone's going to mind!

The cool thing about diminished seventh chords is that each note is a step-and-a-half from it's neighbors, so technically, this could also be an Edim7, Gdim7 or Bbdim7. Usually one names it in the context of the chords surrounding it. If you can tell us what key are you learning Angelina in and a bit of the chord progression around this spot (both before and after), then I'm sure someone will have a more definitive answer that may help you out with your studying.

Good luck with this. It is a beautiful melody.

Peace

almann1979
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Re: help with chord

Post by almann1979 » December 12th, 2009, 2:16 pm

thanks David - the key (i think) is D. the chord progression starts with Dsus2, then D - into A, back to D, and then those three notes Bb, C# and E.

And i agree, it is a beautiful melody. I have no idea how people come up with stuff like that!
"I like to play that guitar. I have to stare at it while I'm playing it because I'm not very good at playing it."
Noel Gallagher (who took the words right out of my mouth)

wkriski
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Re: help with chord

Post by wkriski » December 13th, 2009, 9:46 am

I don't know that song but if you want to understand how it works then I can suggest that if you have a D chord which is the I chord of the key of D major, a common way to approach it is by the V (dominant chord) which is A or A7 = A C# E and G. A common technique is to make the A7 an A7b9 which gives you the Bb. This chord is also called a diminished chord but more modern terminology/jazz is to use the 7b9.

It is strong because the Bb on the A7b9 want to go down to the A in the D chord. If you played A over the A chord then it would stay a common tone on the D. So the A7b9 is unstable and has more tendency to want to resolve.

If you analyze chord progressions or write your own you will see lots of V - I progressions. Just some thoughts...

almann1979
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Re: help with chord

Post by almann1979 » December 13th, 2009, 11:23 am

Thanks very much, that seems to make sense, im going to have another look tonight and i will play the whole A7b9 chord (including the A) and see if it still sounds right. thanks for the advice.
Al
"I like to play that guitar. I have to stare at it while I'm playing it because I'm not very good at playing it."
Noel Gallagher (who took the words right out of my mouth)

wkriski
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Re: help with chord

Post by wkriski » December 13th, 2009, 11:35 am

okay cool. many times the b9 takes the place of the root (A) so you don't play the A though.

almann1979
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Re: help with chord

Post by almann1979 » December 13th, 2009, 11:52 am

that seems to be the case with this song - i didnt realise you meant that general thing too.
does that also mean i can use this in a blues context instead of the V chord?
"I like to play that guitar. I have to stare at it while I'm playing it because I'm not very good at playing it."
Noel Gallagher (who took the words right out of my mouth)

wkriski
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Re: help with chord

Post by wkriski » December 13th, 2009, 12:10 pm

yes in certain ways not necessarily replacing every dom.7 chord.

eg. for blues try playing A7 for a bar (4 beats) D7 for 2 beats the D7b9 for 2 then back to A7
Notice the chromatic movement A7 C# to D on the D7 to Eb (b9) on D7b9 to E on the A7 chord. C#, D, Eb, E nice 4 chromatic note passage.

almann1979
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Re: help with chord

Post by almann1979 » December 13th, 2009, 12:15 pm

thanks - its just about time for me to get my guitar out and practice, so ill give it a try.
thanks for the help.
AL
"I like to play that guitar. I have to stare at it while I'm playing it because I'm not very good at playing it."
Noel Gallagher (who took the words right out of my mouth)

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