Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

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rparker
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Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by rparker » December 2nd, 2009, 6:47 am

I finished up reading a book on Pink Floyd called "Saucerful Of Secrets" by Nicholas Schaffner a few weeks ago. It was written before the Division Bell and Pulse efforts. Something like '89 is probably when he stopped writing the edition I had. It made me wonder about the epic battle between Gilmour and Waters. This book was pro-Gilmour in my opinion, but the author did give Waters his due quite often.

I was very much pro-Gilmour before reading this book, but was not anti-Waters. I don't deal with the "if you're not with me, you're against me" mind-set all that well. To me, this is one of those times where both sides do make compelling arguments.

I am a fan of both pre and post Waters leaving era 'Floyd. It's the combination of musicians that made them what they were. The sum of the parts.....you know the saying. With PF, these parts did come together sometimes and home runs were hit. "Run Like Hell", "Wish You Were Here" and "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" always stand out to me as colaborative efforts that used the strength of both (and Wright to a great extent in SOYCD)

The critism of the last three PF albums was that they sounded like solo efforts (1 Waters, 2 Gilmour). I thought Gilmour trying to do Waters on a couple of songs on MLOR was a little off, but I thought that all three efforts to be otherwise good. I thought Gilmour did a decent job of going back towards some pre-Animals style PF music. Waters did have sense enough to have Gilmour lay out some solo guitar in "The Fletcher Memorial Home". Everytime I listen to the whole album, I think how some more Gilmour and Wright would have sounded. The final PF album did have some Richard Wright in it, either as an influence or actual playing. Even one song writen & sung by him. (RIP, btw)

I've rambled enough. What do you folks think?
Roy

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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by lue42 » December 2nd, 2009, 9:27 am

Well, if you are going to get into Pink Floyd 'era's, you can't just say Gilmour or Waters... what about the Barrett era?

Personally, I don't think the Gilmour era PF is any better or worse than before... just different. But, it has been like that the whole time, hasn't it?

Ummagumma, Wish You Were Here, Animals, Dark Side, Division Bell... they are all very different in their own ways.

My personal favorite PF album is Animals... but I could put on Wish..., or Division Bell any time and enjoy it just as much.

There are very long lived few bands that have existed their whole time with original members... and even those that did explored new types of music over the years (Beatles, Rush, etc).

I think Wright and Gimour (and Mason maybe) have had as much influence on the sound and style of PF as Waters has over the years.. at different times and in different ways, sure. I don't think that PF's whole catalog would be as good if they didn't have the history and friction that they have had.
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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by rparker » December 2nd, 2009, 12:25 pm

I almost don't even think about the Barrett era. I should, PF is his baby, but I don't think about him for whatever reason. Too sad maybe?

You don't hear people say that Animls is their favorite much. It's really good, and good-long songs are right up my alley. I always thought "Comfortably Numb" to be too short even as high as 9:29 on Pulse. "Dogs" is my favorite on Animals.

I understand about being able to put on any of it. I find myself in moods for a particular one and play it. I don't have much of their pre-DSOTM stuff though, and never did rip what I do have onto my PC. Strange.

I don't know if it's the friction that made it great or their willingness to have friction, meaning Rick and David would fight for their rights and win a few (as I understand it to have been).
Roy

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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by Ignar Hillström » December 12th, 2009, 7:26 am

Just MHO but I dont rate Gilmour very highly as songwriter. I love his solo's but as far as songcraft go I have to go with Syd first, closely followed by Waters.
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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by Coolnama » December 12th, 2009, 6:53 pm

I really love Barret's stuff, Apples and Oranges is epic :D.
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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by Kevin72790 » December 16th, 2009, 5:42 am

Ignar Hillstrøm wrote:Just MHO but I dont rate Gilmour very highly as songwriter. I love his solo's but as far as songcraft go I have to go with Syd first, closely followed by Waters.
Agreed on Gilmour. A beautiful soloist, and a big influence on me. But lyrically, and even musically (besides for his abilities of a lead guitarist), he wasn't exactly spectacular.

I prefer Roger Waters over Syd Barrett though, as far as song writing.
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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by rparker » December 16th, 2009, 6:21 am

I don't think even Gilmour rates himself very high as a lyrics guy. I don't think he's given enough credit musically, and is a good vocalist (at least in the PF sense).

I wonder if it ever crossed their minds to say to each-other, "OK, we'll do an album or two your way, and then we'll do an album or two my way"? Fans have proven that if it says "Pink Floyd" on the cover that it will sell. I wonder how many less copies of The Final Cut would have been sold it it was a Roger Waters Solo album rather than a Pink Floyd album. Neither of them made record-breaking sales on their own.

Sometimes I feel like we've been let down by band break-ups. Sometimes it might have been just as well. Who knows.
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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by Kevin72790 » December 16th, 2009, 10:51 am

rparker wrote:I don't think even Gilmour rates himself very high as a lyrics guy. I don't think he's given enough credit musically, and is a good vocalist (at least in the PF sense).

I wonder if it ever crossed their minds to say to each-other, "OK, we'll do an album or two your way, and then we'll do an album or two my way"? Fans have proven that if it says "Pink Floyd" on the cover that it will sell. I wonder how many less copies of The Final Cut would have been sold it it was a Roger Waters Solo album rather than a Pink Floyd album. Neither of them made record-breaking sales on their own.

Sometimes I feel like we've been let down by band break-ups. Sometimes it might have been just as well. Who knows.
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That's what makes Gilmour special. His guitar playing certainly isn't as good as Hendrix, and his singing isn't as good as McCartney...but he takes what he has and writes beautiful music. Like I said before, he's not an innovator in terms of writing extremely original chords or riffs underneath songs, but god damn, did he have the best touch and feel ever. Hendrix is my favorite guitarist, and he gets me more excited than anyone else, but David Gilmour gives me goosebumps more than any other guitarist and that's the special thing about Gilmour.
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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by rparker » December 16th, 2009, 11:31 am

Hendrix's voicings, to me, was what made him "Hendrix". With Gilmour, I think it's his bends. King was Vibrato, etc. Gilmour can take an amp with some overdrive or fuzz pedals with hot pickups and make it sound like mellow music. Knopfler has that touch. I've also been recently thinking that B.B. King might be throwing more dirt through that amp than anyone thinks sometimes.

Conversly, you got Keith Richards getting grit out of turned up Fender & Vox amps without much signal boost going on.

I was messing around with a Comfortably Numb backing track recently. I ended up using a Rat Pro Co emulator on my mutli-effects board with a semi-clean Fender Twin amp model. For anything else, this combo is scorching hot. For CN, it turned into smooth beauty. I've had the same experience for the Dire Straits' song, Brothers In Arms. Straight into a Soldano model with native gain.
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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by lue42 » December 16th, 2009, 11:33 am

rparker wrote:Neither of them made record-breaking sales on their own.
When you are as rich as they are now.... is it really about sales and money any more?

Gilmour's latest solo stuff is amazing and he has said in interviews that he enjoys this part of his musical career more than anything up to this point.

If it were not for all the fighting and drama, would PF even be who they are right now? Could you imaging a PF that didn't have Syd going crazy? Without Richard and Roger fighting. Without Roger's angry lyrics. Without all the power struggles? If they were a big happy family?

Personally... I am really torn about a reunion. I would love to see/hear it. At the same time, I don't. Also, would Guy Pratt play in a reunion... as far as I am concerned, he is the new PF bass player... Roger's replacement.

As far as which guitar player is better... I don't think you can say that Gilmour "certainly isn't as good " as Henrix. Personally I disagree, but I don't think you can compare any of the guitar gods. They all have amazing skills in different areas and have made their own innovations. People can definitely have a favorite player... but to rank them against each other is impossible.
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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by rparker » December 16th, 2009, 11:46 am

lue42 wrote:When you are as rich as they are now.... is it really about sales and money any more?
The money isn't the only aspect. Acceptance is the major factor. It's easy to feel acceptted when you can record a donkey passing gas and selling 4 million copies. Their solo efforts didn't sell like PF did (duh!) and someone as tender as Waters may very well have suffered some insecure moments. His comment towards the last two PF albums certainly reeked of it, that's for sure.

I do need to pick that lastest one up. Been on the back burner for a while.
Roy

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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by Kevin72790 » December 16th, 2009, 2:29 pm

lue42 wrote:
rparker wrote: As far as which guitar player is better... I don't think you can say that Gilmour "certainly isn't as good " as Henrix. Personally I disagree, but I don't think you can compare any of the guitar gods. They all have amazing skills in different areas and have made their own innovations. People can definitely have a favorite player... but to rank them against each other is impossible.
Oh I agree, you can't. If I had to rank my favorite guitarist, first it'd be Jimi Hendrix, and second it'd be David Gilmour. I was saying that from a general "media" point of view, the view of generally most people.
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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by Kroikey » December 17th, 2009, 6:58 am

Well although I'm a Floyd fan, the first album I heard was The Wall.
I've branched out and took in some of DSOTM, which is also hauntingly good.

I think the tensions within Floyd helped them create the music. Waters lyrics and mindset helped fuel Gilmours solos and creativity. Unfortunately the rest of the band seem a bit interchangeable, but I wasn't there when they created their masterpieces so thats only how it seems.

Personally I don't think you can effectively compare a lyricist to a guitar player. The Wall was class, DSOTM was class!

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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by lue42 » December 17th, 2009, 7:15 am

Richard had a huge influence on the music. PF's music would definately not sound the same without him. It is not as obvious as a raging guitar solo, or the lyrics... but just as important.

Not sure about Nick though...
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Re: Pink Floyd: Were Post Waters' Albums Good PF Music

Post by rparker » December 17th, 2009, 7:44 am

I don't know about Nick Mason's influence either. I suppose you'd have to get Gilmour, Waters, Mason, Barrett and a Ouija Board to contact Wright with all in the same room at one time to hash out and agree. The book I read made it sound like they never got along ........ ever.

The author of this book also can't describe Richard Wright without referring to his "haunting chords" or a little drug problem he had. Other than snorting un Greece and playing haunting chords, I have little idea what he was about. He dives into Nick with about as much fevor. Auto racing, switched loyalties and some verbiage indicating that he wasn't that good a drummer was about all I retained about him. No, this book was about Barrett, Waters and Gilmour.

And speaking of Barrett, this author suggests that Gilmour was filling in for or playing on stage with the oft-stoned-too-much Barrett as early as the first album, and that subsequent efforts had very little Barrett involvement. Like someone said earlier in the thread, I wasn't there.
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