More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by rparker » June 13th, 2012, 12:27 pm

TRGuitar wrote:.... it's importand to use a very light touch when checking the 1st fret intonation
Agreed.

Sounds like we're really close on the string height thing.
EzraplaysEzra wrote:Check the break angle on the saddles and make sure the string grooves are not too vague.
Grooves? This, or something very similar is in mine. http://store.guitarfetish.com/Solid-Ste ... _691.html#
EzraplaysEzra wrote:Also, carefully remove the cover for the term cavity and gently place it in the nearest trash bin.
The noise I despise is louder with this off, btw.
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by TRGuitar » June 13th, 2012, 12:42 pm

I know you have a noise you don't like Roy and hope you got/get it figured out, but thinking of what I feel is a Strat sound, I decided to try a little sample recording. Not a good test though as I think the little Peavey VYPYR practice amp I used might have some chorus on it. Don't get too excited, I don't know the song. Should I learn it?

http://soundcloud.com/wickedfester/stratish-surf-sound

This is what I think of when I think Strat ... well, one of the things. Guess that's why I'm a Les Paul guy. :?
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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by rparker » June 13th, 2012, 1:08 pm

Good enough for a test. :D :D

This is much cleaner than mine. Even the few chords you do are much cleaner.

Just curious if you remember which pickup(s)?

Does your Vyper have a tube Screamer sort of overdrive emulator? A little of that on my lead goes a long ways and makes it decent. Snappy, maybe. Hides of blasts away artifacts nicely. (whatever it does)
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by TRGuitar » June 13th, 2012, 1:42 pm

The VYPYR does have a Tube screamer setting but not on there. It was however the bridge pickup and it is a humbucker. GF Lil Killer I believe?

Yeah, that's what it's called....

Image

So amazing it is clean. :lol: I tried the middle pickup but not enough treble.
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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by EzraplaysEzra » June 13th, 2012, 2:08 pm

[quote="rparker"]@EzraplaysEzra: I've heard or read that those screws have to have a certain amount of tension on them or it might otherwise damage the plate. I've avoided ever touching them for that reason.

Do you happen to remember where you read this? They might be interested in my $99 candle and bic lighter idea. - There are clowns out there saying that brass truss rod cover screws will increase sustain (true story) - those screws are installed by eye with a cordless, trust me there is no art in putting those six screws into the body.

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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by rparker » June 13th, 2012, 3:21 pm

I like that 'lil killer. I had forgotten about you doing that, so I was puzzled about which pickup it was. Nice tone it has.

I've still not gotten on well with my tube screamer emulation in my orange bundle of joy, but I'll get there. The amp sims are great.

@Ezra, well, when you (meaning me) don't know for sure and see somehting like that, you kind of leave it be. I'll try to remember where I saw it. I'm thinking it might have been some Youtube video.....which is always dangerous. :lol:
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by greybeard » June 13th, 2012, 10:55 pm

Never tried it, but I think that putting rubber/silicone tubing under the plate would dampen vibrations and destroy sustain.

I get the inpression that your problem is that one or more springs are not under sufficient tension and are flapping around, as you play.

Another possibility, albeit a wild one, is that the screws, holding the block to the plate, have come loose. There are 3 of them, located under the saddles.
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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by rparker » June 14th, 2012, 3:35 am

greybeard wrote:Never tried it, but I think that putting rubber/silicone tubing under the plate would dampen vibrations and destroy sustain.

I get the inpression that your problem is that one or more springs are not under sufficient tension and are flapping around, as you play.

Another possibility, albeit a wild one, is that the screws, holding the block to the plate, have come loose. There are 3 of them, located under the saddles.
You'd think it would have an effect. :?:

I've not considered those screws other than in passing. It might be part of the equation. I'll check them the next time I change strings.I am growing more and more pleased with all of the things that I've tried. As was said, it always sounded like a maintenance issue.

One other thing to note. The original tuners stunk and I got the wilkinson locking ones as a repalcement. I wonder if these things could be part of the equation?
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by TRGuitar » June 14th, 2012, 5:05 am

As far as the 6 screws in the front, the fulcrum points, I do believe they are supposed to be raised ever so slightly for the trem to work properly however I don't use mine so the springs are at 5 in number and everything is tightened right down, those 6 screws in the front as well. Works for me. A hard tail would have been nice but for the money I paid I couldn't be pickey.
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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by rparker » June 14th, 2012, 5:27 am

I did see a couple of hard-tail MIMs on youtube that sounded very nice. 8) 8) I think they were the Robert Cray signature model.
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by EzraplaysEzra » June 14th, 2012, 7:33 am

"Donnie, you're out of your element." - Walter Sobcezk

Allow me to kind of retract an earlier statement; there is a right way and a wrong way to install a vintage trem, naturally. The six anchor screws are there to hold the trem in position. That's it. It has more in common with the neck plate than any other component on the guitar in that it connects two components to the major system. It is not a component of intonation, string height, or action. The only other function it has is tilt the entire system forward against spring tension. It is by design a static system with the manual capacity to disrupt a static system and return to the resting state.
If you look at the bottom of the trem plate you'll see that it is not flat, it has a knife edge bevel on it's leading edge that extends to the pivot point of the system, the screws, to allow it to travel along a single axis. (further back on better after market plates) This allows the system to pivot forward and slack the strings. The sprung energy returns the system to its resting position.
The proper way to "set-up" the trem plate it to set the screws down far enough so that the rear edge of the plate raises above the body then tighten down the two outside anchor screws only enough so the plate rests on the body. The four center screws are then tightened down until the heads almost touch the plate. The plate should not slide on the screws when the trem is engaged at all. That is bad. The trem should return to pitch once dis engaged. If not, the spring and claw need to be adjusted. This is not "floating" system so you can't bend it sharp and expect it to return to proper pitch, sorry. I Stated before that there is no magical way to set the trem, what I meant was; the person that installed the trem on your guitar (and 300 other guitars that day) did not spend that much time installing the bridge, not in China, not in Corona, California, maybe at the custom shop, maybe. But even they are working with an imperfect system designed 65 years ago.

@rparker There is nothing to be afraid of, you are not going to ruin anything by changing the settings even if it isn't correct, it just wont function properly. It actually requires better under standing of the system to twist a tuning peg than tighten and loosen these screws. If you installed locking tuners on your guitar than you've already undertaken a much more difficult and sophisticated task. That said, Installing locking tuners may have caused the problem you are experiencing. You are locking the strings into position at the head stock but the rest of the system is still compensating for sag and fatigue from the tension of the strings. Now the load, in theory, is being transferred to the bridge end of the strings instead of over the entire length, resulting in more regular maintenance at most. But that's only a theory based on experience and some deductive reasoning.
Also, If removing the back plate causes the problem to become louder (acoustically of coarse) then, logically the problem is originating somewhere in the spring cavity. In that case everything I've written above is superfluous.

That is my two cents based on actual experience. If you're still reading, here is my rant:
If you have no experience with a subject and you state so in a post it is good form to follow the statement with a question regarding the subject when your statement is in contrast to a previous post, not your opinion of the subject that you have already professed to have no experience with. It shows respect to the person who has offered his knowledge and expertise on a subject. So instead of stating, for instance "I have never tried what you are talking about but I think you are possibly an idiot" Try instead, "Would, adding a grommet between the plate and the body cause any loss of tone or sustain?" The answer would still be; No the addition of the grommets do not interfere with the contact point and axis between the bridge and the body.

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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by rparker » June 14th, 2012, 7:51 am

@Ezra - You totally lost me in the rant. I'm not sure I appeared to have said.
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by EzraplaysEzra » June 14th, 2012, 8:35 am

rparker wrote:@Ezra - You totally lost me in the rant. I'm not sure I appeared to have said.
Not meant for you man.

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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by greybeard » June 14th, 2012, 11:30 am

He's having a wild swing at me.

It doesn't change my opinion - both soft rubber and silicone are used to dampen vibrations.

Furthermore, if you follow the instructions, to the letter, you are barely going to have room to put a grommet between plate and body. In order to function properly, the plate needs to pivot freely on the screws. Surely, putting grommets in there is going to add a lot of friction between plate and body. The chances of the plate returning to its original position (and, therefore, tune) must be reduced immensely?

I have admitted that I've never tried it (which is more honest than claiming someone wrote something that they didn't). Surely, if it was such a fantastic mod, every after-market supplier would be selling kits?
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Re: More Knock Off Strat Woes: UPDATED with sample

Post by TRGuitar » June 14th, 2012, 12:25 pm

I have I believe 3 guitars with trems. All are lower end, the most high end being my beloved (if rarely played) 1992 MIM Strat. The others are my Strat knock off SX from Rondo and an OLP Ernie Ball Axis copy. (vintage trem, not Floyd) I have a box full of trem arms put up some where. I don't use them likely due to thier imperfection. I have thought about trying to make one function at times though. It would probably be the Axis clone. I'm really not a wammy bar guy though. I once had a "real" one and didn't use it much. It was an Ibanez Radius. (The model now dubbed the Joe satriani model) It was a higher end guitar that I traded because I hated the Floyd Rose style trem. That's life I suppose. :?
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