The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

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Moonrider
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by Moonrider » February 19th, 2013, 10:27 am

Crow wrote: I want to play with people who look at music as WORK, as a job that needs to be done at the most professional level possible.
Substitute "paid performance" for music in the above.

Music is what my mistress Euterpe drives me to create. She's harsh, she's cruel, demanding and unforgiving if I fail to worship her with my instruments every day, and failing to do so for longer periods of time puts my health and sanity at risk. But if I perform my daily worship by playing and singing I am gifted with joy, serenity, and the adoration of my family, friends and fans.

(Euterpe is the Greek Muse of Music and Lyric Poetry) ;)
Playing guitar and never playing for others is like studying medicine and never working in a clinic.

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s1120
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by s1120 » February 19th, 2013, 12:21 pm

cnev wrote:But music is so subjective everyone has a different take on the same artist. Alan I actually don't disagree I am just trying to look at this objectively. I never listen to shredder type music because like you it doesn't do anything for me, but that's the key for me. not for anyone else. I know there are thousands maybe millions of people that LOVE hearing that music so someone likes it.

I don't have a problem when people say they don't like that type of music, but when you start talking about how it isn't musical or something along those lines you project an air of arrogance that only the music YOU like is really music and the rest is just garbage. OK I may have taken some liberties in my assessment but I hope you get the drift.

By the way Alan what is the meaning of music and how does shredding not fit that?

I think this is such a sliding scale there is no right answer. Music is what the person hearing it thinks it is. Be is clasical, shredd blues, or just the world around you. Frankly Im a nut for anything Mechanical... And not much more sweet a musical sound then the sound of a steam locomotive running down the tracks! Is that music? It is to me... is the engeneer a musician?? well maybe that is a reach... maybe the designer... that would follow the "art in the machine" theme.. So I dont belive you can discount anyone as a Musician... anyone, or thing can produce a sound that might be music to someone.
Paul B

fleaaaaaa
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by fleaaaaaa » February 22nd, 2013, 2:02 am

A jazz saxophonist plays a flurry of notes and its called bebop (sometimes even art)

A guitarist plays a flurry of notes and its called showing off (sometimes even shredding)

:roll:
together we stand, divided we fall..........

Crow
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by Crow » February 22nd, 2013, 7:42 am

fleaaaaaa wrote:A jazz saxophonist plays a flurry of notes and its called bebop (sometimes even art)

A guitarist plays a flurry of notes and its called showing off (sometimes even shredding)

:roll:
This is a good comparison. Bop players in general are choosing notes based on more complex chords than shredders. I'm sure some shredders can solo over chords just as complex as those used by boppers. From a listener's standpoint, is there any difference, other than the swing-vs-rock-rhythm difference? In some (rare) cases, that "flurry of notes" may reach a level of art, no matter what the style. (Like John Coltrane on one side, Eddie Van Halen on the other.) Is it musically comprehensible to an average listener, in ANY case? Not likely... so it kinda comes down to visceral impact.

If it hits you in the gut, it's good. Is that too simplistic?
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa

fleaaaaaa
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by fleaaaaaa » February 22nd, 2013, 8:43 am

Lets not forget speedy passages in classical music which I'm sure ALL of the people objecting to shredding here accept.

I don't see anyone here deriding flight of the bumblebee for its fast passages.

Of course - shredding is not for everyone, I'm not even a big fan but some of the comments here have been stupid, if you like shredding then it definitely is sure you see it as music and the players as musicians - and no, there's no difference between those musicians and others that play with "feeling" they are both guitar players and they are both musicians and there's no pencil line categorising them into two different columns.
together we stand, divided we fall..........

cnev
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by cnev » February 22nd, 2013, 10:01 am

fleaa I have to agree...and it rhymed.

The only pencil lines that are there are the ones we create as individuals in our head. Music is music if you don't like a certain kind that's your prerogative but it's still music good or bad.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!

Crow
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by Crow » February 22nd, 2013, 10:13 am

fleaaaaaa wrote:Lets not forget speedy passages in classical music which I'm sure ALL of the people objecting to shredding here accept.
We "accept" stuff in context. Does it make musical sense? If it doesn't immediately make sense, it might be garbage, or it might be a masterpiece. Only time can tell. Does it have a visceral impact? At least it's effective.
I don't see anyone here deriding flight of the bumblebee for its fast passages.
Nobody's asked for a defense. "Bumblebee" is like an etude -- a study piece. Or maybe an encore piece. "How fast can you play 'Bumblebee'?" I have no problem with finger exercises played fast. Just don't pretend that finger speed equals musical quality.
Of course - shredding is not for everyone, I'm not even a big fan but some of the comments here have been stupid, if you like shredding then it definitely is sure you see it as music and the players as musicians - and no, there's no difference between those musicians and others that play with "feeling" they are both guitar players and they are both musicians and there's no pencil line categorising them into two different columns.
"Can you play an A flat without coaching?": That might be my "pencil line" between musicians and non-musicians. Beyond that, musical quality is entirely subjective -- that is, it depends on what one likes to hear.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa

fleaaaaaa
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by fleaaaaaa » February 22nd, 2013, 10:28 am

Lets just say though that some delta blues man didn't know how to read write, or even know what "Ab" meant - just because he didn't know that he couldn't join your circle?
together we stand, divided we fall..........

Crow
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by Crow » February 22nd, 2013, 11:17 am

fleaaaaaa wrote:Lets just say though that some delta blues man didn't know how to read write, or even know what "Ab" meant - just because he didn't know that he couldn't join your circle?
;

He wouldn't bother to audition. :lol:
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa

fleaaaaaa
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by fleaaaaaa » February 22nd, 2013, 1:18 pm

All I'm trying to say is that music is what you hear - and feel - it should be intuitive. So maybe someone doesn't know which note they are playing at a specific moment...... I actually can still do that and I know the know how of which notes are which... learning which note is a "Bb" is easy - you can go online anytime and google "notes on the guitar" - so you can find out easily its not secret knowledge and if you can find that knowledge you can learn it. Learning to be an intuitive musician who can jump straight into playing and feeling a song is way harder.
together we stand, divided we fall..........

GrungeSunset
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by GrungeSunset » February 22nd, 2013, 2:45 pm

I'm always confused on these threads that are against shredding. I always picture someone wailing on a guitar non-stop for the whole duration of a song. However, I never seem to find songs where this is the case though this could be the fact that I don't listen to that kind of stuff. I once saw a clip at an Alter Bridge concert where Mark Tremonti shredded on a guitar in between songs, kind of like an intermission. While I wouldn't classify this as musical, I wouldn't say it's killing the music as he's not attempting to play a song, he is just showing off his chops.

I also have yet to find guitarists who can just only shred. Steve Vai comes up a lot and he does and can shred but doesn't always shred. In an interview, he was once asked what the secret to playing fast was, Vai's answer was simply "start slow". With that logic in mind, anyone who can play fast likely started the same place we all started: strumming a few chords, learning scales and finding easy songs to play. I'm sure if you asked Vai, Malsteem and anyone else known for their speed to strum a few open chords, they would still be able to do it. I know Vai plays the lead guitar in his songs but he also composes his songs as well sometimes using full orchestras.

I'm with previous posters and some examples of guitarists who are purely "guitar players" might help the discussion.
"In what, twisted universe does mastering Eddie Van Halen's two handed arpeggio technique count as ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?!" - Dr Gregory House

Crow
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by Crow » February 22nd, 2013, 3:26 pm

fleaaaaaa wrote:So maybe someone doesn't know which note they are playing at a specific moment...... I actually can still do that and I know the know how of which notes are which...
So can I, and I love playing with intuitive players, if they are really intuitive and not just wankers. It's easy to say, "I play what I feel, mahnnnn," and then just... you know. Truly intuitive players are rare.
Learning to be an intuitive musician who can jump straight into playing and feeling a song is way harder.
Absolutely. That's why those musicians are so rare.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa

imalone
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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by imalone » February 22nd, 2013, 3:37 pm

GrungeSunset wrote:I'm sure if you asked Vai, Malsteem and anyone else known for their speed to strum a few open chords, they would still be able to do it. I know Vai plays the lead guitar in his songs but he also composes his songs as well sometimes using full orchestras.
All those guys are heavily into their musical theory, Malsteem would describe what he does as 'neo-classical', so I doubt they'd have any problem with a couple of open chords. That I tend to get bored after the first 30 seconds doesn't mean it's not music or that someone else has to hate it. I always think it sounds like there's an element of jealousy behind this kind of thing, it's a way of saying you don't care that these guys have amazing technique because, after all, what they're doing isn't music anyway. Which is wrong, if you don't care about that being able to do what they do then that's enough, focus on whatever you want to do. If you do wish you could do it then get practicing.
(Me, I'm still trying to manage Cream songs...)

By the way, I've quoted GrungeSunset, but when I say 'you' I don't mean you. I just couldn't bring myself to write the whole post saying 'one'.

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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by Honeyboy » March 9th, 2013, 6:02 am

Boy I leave you guys and gals for a while and all hell breaks lose... just kidding.

My point was certainly not "anti-shredding"... shredding is fine if it fits the song. My real point was if the guitarist is not playing what works in the song, then they are just showing off and not being a "musician." To go beyond just being a guitarist you have to learn how to play the right parts for the song... whatever style it is.

And again, let me say it took me years before I got this!!!
Rick Honeyboy Hart

"It's about tone, taste, and technique... in that order."

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Re: The difference between a guitar player and a musician.

Post by fleaaaaaa » March 10th, 2013, 1:10 am

You mean my ultra fast diminished arpeggio doesn't actually fit this Beatles song???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbD7a0IVLHM[url][/url]
together we stand, divided we fall..........

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