There is tone out there

Live sound reinforcement, running PA's and general amplifier/amplification questions and discussion.
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cnev
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There is tone out there

Post by cnev » March 10th, 2010, 8:38 am

OK so I have finally actually heard the gutiar tone that I have been searching for or at least wanting to get close to.

I played an open mic last night with some of the guys that I play with and some other people that jumped in. That was pretty cool played maybe 6-7 songs total didn't know a couple so I laid back on those but that is not the point of the post.

I had to get up there quickly when we were ready to play and I wasn't even plugged or anything so one of the other guitar players asked me if I wanted to play through his rig so of course I said sure.

He was playing through a Fender Deville and had a huge pedal board maybe 10 or so pedals (never really looked at them closely to see what they were)but man when I played that first note it was a sound I have NEVER ever heard coming out of my amp with any pedal combination that I have used.

Of course the first thing I need to do is talk to him and get a scoop on what he's got. In theory I think my Hot Rod Deluxe should be OK just need some pedals and maybe new tubes for the amp.

But I really was getting to the point that I thought maybe I had no idea what sound I was actually after and if I could ever find it. I also started thinking that maybe my playing was just that bad that I could make any amp/pedal combo sound bad, but after last night I know for sure that the sound I am after is possible with my guitar and fingers.

The biggest breakthough I've had in awhile.
Last edited by cnev on March 10th, 2010, 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by Nuno » March 10th, 2010, 9:09 am

That is a really good news Chris! Now you should try to reproduce that pedal board and the rest of the gear (the tubes, etc.).

Many congrats! :D

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cnev
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by cnev » March 10th, 2010, 9:18 am

Thanks Nuno that will be the plan. I really should be able to get pretty close to that sound since I have a Fender amp and that's what I was playing through but it really has been a long struggle to even get close to that sound and one that I have never had with my guitar and me playing it.

There was one other thing that helped me feel that I'm not going crazy. One of the other guitar players that was playing brought a Peavey solid state amp. not sure of the model but bigger than the 40w Valveking I brought but didn't use.

Anyway he played through a Boss Me-50 or something I'm not sure but the tone that he had was exactly the crappy tone that seemed to be all I could get. It was a very distorted (and not in a good way sound) similar to having a jar of bees buzzing around. It really didn't fir in with other guitars but I have struggeld trying to get any other sound sometimes myself.

I have been using the Peavey Valveking 112 with my DS-1 pedal withalmost no distortion set ont he pedal and playing through the clean channel. That makes it bearable but still not that good.
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by Blue Jay » March 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm

cnev wrote:OK so I have finally actually heard the gutiar tone that I have been searching for or at least wanting to get close to.

He was playing through a Fender Deville and had a huge pedal board maybe 10 or so pedals (never really looked at them closely to see what they were)but man when I played that first note it was a sound I have NEVER ever heard coming out of my amp with any pedal combination that I have used.

The biggest breakthough I've had in awhile.
Chris this sounds like you're gonna make it with your tone, after a few minor mods.

So I was just wondering, and don't anybody take this wrong, but I've seen more players disown or sell their Hot Rod Devilles than the Deluxes, because (and this is subjective, not objective) whatever's wrong with the little 40W Deluxe is amplified about half again by the 60W Deville, with either 2-12's or 4-10's. But my ears are forgiving of the 4-10's, and they make me think: ahhh.... 45W Super Reverb and then some? Soo, if I had taken advantage of my buddy who got a new HR Deville and couldn't get rid of it, mint with almost all the 5 year's warranty remaining for a mere $500, cleaner than it was in the crate with a plexiglass cover on top over the chrome, and casters on the bottom... I'd have put in pre-amp tubes with 70 percent of the gain, and maybe come out with 42 watts in theory, and the beauty of 4-10's. There is a caveat, if you change the pre-amp tube for the gain channel, your amp's overdrive or distortion will suck, and only be driven by very powerful pickup signals, but you've got a BOSS DS-1 to cover that. My friend hated the OD channel on his.

But I've said I am downsizing, not going up, so that's why I sold my big Super Reverb, keeping a smaller-in-size Super 60.

Jeez, that was along first paragraph, sorry. I've seen people lucky enough to have a tweed Blues Deville, and they are hangin' on. I always blame the "cons" of the Hot Rods on their Groove Tubes, but I have spared my HR called the Blues Junior instead of HR Junior, the 15 watter from too much dislike. It has more "pros" going for it, ha ha, and a bunch of mods that can be done to keep it's ambience or fidelity at low vols, which it needs - low vols as opposed to high, unless you take a pair of these amps to a gig to crank 'em up, in the same manner as Vox AC 30's often show up in mean pairs?

However, just to keep the record straight, I still have a pair of Blues Deluxes, with just one on the long and winding road with me, or where I'm at, and I've been playing with GT's in it, just 1 or 2, actually just 1 tube swapped now - I don't think a GT is necessary as a reverb driver #3. I can add to it's natural warmth and bluesiness, and give it more edge, just for fun, originally to have 2 different amps with the same construction and look, and one of the pair with more dirt.

So, did this tone wizard that you met have a black tolex Hot Rod Deville - I read it that way and just wanted to be sure? Then you WILL get your sound dialled in. 8)
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by rparker » March 25th, 2010, 8:05 pm

cnev, did you ever get up with the guy whose amp you played out of to aski him what you were playng though, if it was modded, what exact pedals he left you with and their settings?

Kind of curious to hear what you come up with. the tubes all pretty much look thre same. Brings it down to speaker types and qty within the amp, and who knows what in front of the amp.
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: There is tone out there

Post by cnev » March 26th, 2010, 5:16 am

Roy, I haven't but he's at the open mics every week with my buddies and I'll probably go down this week and talk to him. I know he was usuing the Visual Sounds Jekyl and Hyde pedal which darkhorse has been talking about and a volume boost but not sure what if anything else. I'd guess the amp was the stock Fender Deville with stock tubes but my guitar did sound sweet.

I currently don't have an amp since my tubes are shot and I don't have the cash to buy new ones, but I've been using my Johnson J station amp modeler directly through my PA at home and although the sound ain't that great it's alot better than I ever heard it. I had always tried to run directly into my amp through the preamp and it ALWAYS sounded like cheap digital crap. If you record it it sounds fine but in a live setting it's junk in my opinion. Anyway having read that these are best used with PA's or through the effects loop I tried connecting to the PA and it at least it's a usable sound to hold me over for now.
Last edited by cnev on March 26th, 2010, 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by rparker » March 26th, 2010, 5:48 am

I've heard that the multi-effects processors don't get good tone coming from amps and that a PA or other plain system like a keyboard amp are the way to go. Most of the guitar you've heard from me in the past 6 months is guitar -> GT-10 -> headphones out -> computer line in. I think it does really well. It also sound great going tinot my big keyboard/drum/PA amp thing as does my Vamp. My little solid state 30W is what I hear the GT-10 come through. It's vanilla enough to not horrible alter the tone. Low volumes though. I bet it escallates with higher volume.

How much are tubes for you HRD? Standard, run of the mill would run about $100 or so for 3 12AX7 and 2 6l6 plus labor. (no idea how much that is). Also, some people advertise barely eorn tubes that they had laying around due to upgrade. That sound slike a whole other can of worms. If you replacing them already, you can decide which one probide the tone you want. I gues it can be as easy or as complicated as you want. Doo keep my informed, if you would. I've got the Blues Deluxe Re-Issue. It will be three years old veddy soon. Seeing how I have no knowledge, I'll use what you learn. LOL

Oh, one other thing I've done at times is to turn the M-EFX's pre-amp off when using the SS amp as output. That way I only have one amp coloring the tone. It's a very clean Fender, so no big deal there.

Sorry for rambling. I can only learn by asking others and chatting about stuff.
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: There is tone out there

Post by rparker » March 26th, 2010, 5:57 am

Oh, I just thought of something. You've probably covered it already. Migraine kicking my tail and reading is painful, so plese forgive me for not being thorough.

I'd ask him not only the speaker config, but wheather or on they were stock or replacement non OE types. I can tell you most confidently that my one and only speaker change made a nice difference.

And of course, the same for tubes or caps I've seen talked about.

Sorry for rambling again and probably repeating things you know more about than I do. :oops:

nap time
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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cnev
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by cnev » March 26th, 2010, 9:41 am

Thanks roy yea I probably wouldn't have asked and I remember you mentining your speaker change made a big difference I'll have to ask him.

The tube set that I was looking at from the tubestore was a little over $100 and I thought I could change those myself.
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by Scrybe » March 27th, 2010, 10:26 am

I live (read "buy") by four rules:

Multi-FX usually are not worth it, single pedals are the way to go (unless you go into the uber-expensive territory...when I get there, I'll report back..)

Only ever use tube amps, and only ever buy gear you're completely happy with, having tried a bunch of stuff.

Never be persuaded into buying something else if you've found what makes you happy.

Never sell that gear once you've bought it.
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by TRGuitar » March 27th, 2010, 1:10 pm

I would have said a short time ago I agreed whole heartedly with all those rules. But ....... since I got my Peavey VYPYR my tube amp sits there as does my pedal board. The VYPRY has analog effects as well as digital ones though so I think it recreates the pedals much better than most multi FX units do. I still love my tube amps, I just feel differently about modeling amps now is all.
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by cnev » March 28th, 2010, 5:10 am

But that vypr Valve King 112 I was using but my buddy took it back that's why I'm using the Johnson J station now. But the guy that runs the open miscs came by yesterday and I was showing him the J station and he liked it. So if I go to the open mic I'll just bring that and my guitar and plug directly into the PA. Won't get much easier than that, actually i'll be nice not having to lug an amp around.
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by rparker » April 6th, 2010, 7:50 pm

A good deal of samples I've heard over the last couple years sound much better than samples heard 5 years ago. I think digital is getting better and better. I've also begun to understand what's happening under the hood a bit and have gotten better at setting up tones from scratch.

I've also used my GT-10 out of my Fender SCXD now. I am a big fan. I am a lot more familiar with the GT-10 and I am with those 16 voicings on the Fender. Plus, all's I gotta do is flip the dial or mash the pedals and I can get to a patch almost instantly with the GT-10. With the 16 voicings thing, I gotta remember which voicing, where the volume and gain knobs were, the bass and treble and what effect(no plural) I might have been using. Heck with that. I'm going to get a travel bag for the Gt-10. Keeping the amp though. Great clean channel.
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: There is tone out there

Post by cnev » April 7th, 2010, 6:28 am

Well my buddy came by last night and dropped me off his Jekyl and Hyde pedal which he had to repair because a chair fell on it. It's the same pedal I used at the open mic a few weeks ago through a Hot Rod Deville.

I hooked up to my Hot Rod deluxe which I haven't been using because I think the tubes are going and it sounded pretty sweet with the Epi les Paul.

I haven't tried it with the Strat or Jackson yet but I will try it tonight to see what kind of tones I can get.

Playing through the Johnson J-Station directly into the PA was an improvement over the tone I was getting but this was like night and day.

I'm still a bit uncertain about the condition of my tubes. I had a guy come by that has been doing sound for years and he played the amp and though the tubes sounded fine then after he played it awhile he did think one of the power tubes might be going. He suggested I pull a power tube out one at a time and see if it corrected the problem. I haven't tried that yet.
I think once I get some cash that I'll just go ahead and buy the new set of tubes.
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Re: There is tone out there

Post by Blue Jay » April 7th, 2010, 6:34 am

Good, you keep trying to improve the situation. Making progress.

Sounds like a plan, getting some new tubes, and giving 'er another try. :D
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