All of the above! (Laz Mix!)

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TRGuitar
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All of the above! (Laz Mix!)

Post by TRGuitar » September 18th, 2012, 7:13 pm

ok ... Should post in Hear Here ... nobody responds. My cheap home studio ....... mixer ... USB interface ... windows .. oh the humanity! Audacity .. free, has to stink!!! I have 3 guitar tracks. I have a rhythm track with drums and bass. There are 2 vocal tracks, one to add delay for a reverb effect. I truely would like to know what people think of the end result of my very modest and all but free setup. The guitars were recorded via a SansAmp GT2 which is not a cheap little item. It's no Eleven Rack but best part of $200 for my amp emulator. No FX, just gain, bass treble and amp models, all analog! It emulates mic placement as well. I know there are not a lot of KISS fans here, but this is the first song I ever learned to play. I think I am doing it justice after 35 years of practice. :lol:

http://soundcloud.com/wickedfester/cold-gin

Comments? Suggestions? Questions?

New mix here .... http://soundcloud.com/wickedfester/cold-gin-take-2

Version III http://soundcloud.com/wickedfester/cold-gin-iii

Version 4 http://soundcloud.com/wickedfester/cold ... ver-take-4

Laz Mix http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... D=11912486
Last edited by TRGuitar on September 26th, 2012, 9:33 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Laz
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Re: All of the above!

Post by Laz » September 18th, 2012, 7:48 pm

Sounds good enough. The musicianship was very good. Some things could be better - the vocal level wandered up and down and lacked reverb in general, except when the strong delay was inserted. The overall sound seemed "flat". The guitar was perhaps overly compressed, and again lacked reverb depth.

The drum track was from a synth correct? It has more stereo width and sounds much brighter than the guitars. I use Audacity all the time, and it's extremely good for being free. I took the studio tracks and remixed them for our demos to make them sound brighter and have more stereo imaging - especially Secret Agent Man (link below).

Just for fun, can you put the individual tracks up somewhere and let me (us?) play with them?

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Re: All of the above!

Post by bkangel » September 18th, 2012, 7:55 pm

Knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about recording, I'm looking forward to the responses to try and learn a little more (sorry, leeching off your post :lol: )
What I lack in talent and natural ability, I will have to make up with stubborness.

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Re: All of the above!

Post by Alan Green » September 18th, 2012, 11:06 pm

I thought the overall balance of the guitars/ bass/ drums was nicely done - I could hear each instrument clearly.

Like Laz, I think I'd have added a bit more reverb, especially to the vocal, and I might even have double-tracked the vocal. Ah, the things you can do ifyou have loads of spare time.

But - it's well presented and I can't remember the last time I listened to a KISS song from start to finish.
"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger
"I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk

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TRGuitar
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Re: All of the above!

Post by TRGuitar » September 19th, 2012, 4:59 am

Thanks for the input guys! it is much appreciated. The bass and drums are a backing track. It was an MP3, not midi so I couldn't remove the bass and have my son play it live like I usually do.
"Work hard, rock hard, eat hard, sleep hard,
grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em."
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Re: All of the above!

Post by rparker » September 19th, 2012, 6:55 am

Sounds very well mixed and balanced and the playing is awesome as it always is. Really nicely laid out.

TRGuitar wrote: I truely would like to know what people think of the end result of my very modest and all but free setup.
I totally agree about the flatness. I have the most luck with reverb done per track, but taking care to make sure I use the same one and the same settings. I just make the reverb signal strength what I want it to be at the track level.

The other thing I would try is EQ. I like boosting some of the key frequencies. I don't hear mud on your mix, so no subtractive stuff needed. I've also had some success boosting one freq with a small Q on one track, followed by boosting a differerent freq. It helps make both instruments shine through. I've tried doing the opposites technique. For example only, boost track #1 +4db at 750hz and boost track #2 +4db at 1.2khz. then I reduce track #1's 1.2khz by -4db and track #2's 750hz by -4db. I boost and sweep the range on each track to find out which freq on which track sounds good and which freqs sound bad.

Just a couple of thoughts.

That Sansamp is such a good purchase. It can do darned near anything. I've used it for acoustic and bass so far. I've tried many of the other settings in the manual. I originally bought it so that I couldd record a live setting. One playing electronic drums, one bass and one guitar. I send the Sansamp into one of the line-ins and a mono signal from the drums into the other line in.
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: All of the above!

Post by s1120 » September 19th, 2012, 7:29 am

bkangel wrote:Knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about recording, I'm looking forward to the responses to try and learn a little more (sorry, leeching off your post :lol: )

LOL oh Im with you!! Im a noob bigtime on recording also. I can master a muddy Ipod recording thats it.


SOunds good TR. I know nothing about the steps invalved, so Im not a lot of help, but do echo the statement that its a bit flat... needs a little life to it... how to get that..no help there. :) Great playing though!! It realy shows you have been doing this a LONG time!!
Paul B

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Re: All of the above!

Post by TRGuitar » September 19th, 2012, 8:20 am

I am in the process of polishing this up a bit as per the suggestions. I also have sent it to Laz as he was kind enough to offer to play around with it for me to see how it can be improved. I added some reverb to the tracks and it does brighten it up some with just that. As Roy mentions, I used the same reverb on each track and adjust them individually to taste. This is certainly an area where I miss analog. With my 4 track studio I would have 2 FX loops and could just twiddle the knob as the tape played. I was using very familiar pedals and processors, not parameters. Knobs! When I get done I'll post the second version for further critique.

Roy, what Sans Amp do you have? I have 2 of them. One for recording, the GT2, and for live use, the Tri OD.

Image

For recording



Image

For live with an amp or PA
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Re: All of the above! (ReMixed)

Post by TRGuitar » September 19th, 2012, 3:02 pm

OK So I took the above suggestions and did a remix. Added reverb, made things more stereo and brightened the EQ on the guitars. Is it any better? Thanks for lending an ear!

http://soundcloud.com/wickedfester/cold-gin-take-2
"Work hard, rock hard, eat hard, sleep hard,
grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em."
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Re: All of the above! (ReMixed)

Post by rparker » September 19th, 2012, 5:40 pm

I have the SansAmp Para Driver DI. My bass playing friend suggested it highly. I've still not explored it all yet.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifie ... eamp-pedal

I'll check out the latest version later tonght or tomorrow morning when ear settles down some.
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: All of the above! (ReMixed)

Post by TRGuitar » September 19th, 2012, 7:25 pm

Did you know Geddy Lee's bass rig is a Sans Amp into the PA ... although it is a rack model. They are amazing little boxes!
"Work hard, rock hard, eat hard, sleep hard,
grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em."
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Re: All of the above! (ReMixed)

Post by rparker » September 20th, 2012, 7:07 am

I didn't know that. Interesting. I bet his rack number has quite a few more gizmos. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Alright, 2nd take. Remember, this is just what I'm hearing through headphones.

The guitar that starts things up until joined by others at the 10 second mark, and then is part of the total sound, lost some of it's meat. Perhaps that frequency got pushed down or compressed out or something. I like the guitars better on the first mix. What's the thicker end of the guitar tone frequency? I don't remember.

Don't hurt me! :lol:

I don't know. It's really tough to describe. I was going to load it into Reaper and do a frequency sweep on it to see if I can identify the part of the tone I don't hear. I can't seem to be able to download - only listen. Odd. I'm sure I'm missing something.

Keep in mind that the only reason I'm saying anything at all is that you want me to if I hear something rather than to say the standard fluff. This is also far better than anything I've ever done. It makes it kind of weird saying anything about your mix when I can't come close to playing this and probably would screw it up royally if I had control of the faders. :D :D
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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Re: All of the above! (ReMixed)

Post by TRGuitar » September 20th, 2012, 8:31 am

Yeah, I think the reverb is causing some of the frequencies to cancel out or something. The first one had better guitar tone. Maybe I'll try one with the guitars dry and reverb on the vocal?
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Re: All of the above! (ReMixed)

Post by Laz » September 20th, 2012, 8:55 am

Oh yeah, #2 sounds better. Brighter and livelier. Perhaps too much "echo" on the vocal reverb, so it doesn't sound like part of the same performance. I'd have to mess with the reverb parameters for a while to find what I liked, but then it might not be what you liked. :wink:

I'll post my version, but prolly not til next week.

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Re: All of the above! (ReMixed)

Post by rparker » September 20th, 2012, 10:06 am

I had to give them both some more tries. I get tone burnout very quickly.
Laz wrote:Oh yeah, #2 sounds better. Brighter and livelier.
I do agree with this statement in part. I thought the secondary guitars popped through. I'm still thinking the primary guitar tone had something happen to it. A growl from the lower guitar range.

TR, just curious. Did you do anything to your bass/drum track? I tried to determine, but my A/B testing skills are not well right now. I know I've tested some things to create space with drums and bass tracks, but never on the same track like what you're deaing with. Does Audacity have a Maximiser plug-in? Maybe a small dose of this on that track would add some energy? Just a thought.

OK, so what I wrote below is probably so old school for you that it's way too obvious and I apoligize. But, just in case it isn't ....... heck, maybe it might help out another reader. I'm probably 30 years behind you on the recording thing. :oops: :oops:
Another thought would be to take an EQ on the primary rhythm guitar track on the old version or bypassing the changes made to the second version. Using a 1-band EQ would work great, but as long as you can jump from range to range using any number of markers or balls or whatever it is that you can drag.

Once you're set up, go through the boost and sweep method that's been seen on the 'net. Sometimes it works. The method says to boost up +6 to +8 DB with a small cut - maybe 2.5-3.5Q. Start at one end and move the marker slowly towards the other end. If it works, you will run across the frequency that you identify as being the good tone that got lopped out of the second version. Once ID'd, go back to the EQ for the second version and adjust upwards the boost at that frequency.

They also say that it can be done in non-solo mode for best results. The theory being that you can hear what you want to hear through the mix and would then not lose it going back into the full mix. It also could mean that another instrument is hogging that section of the frequency range?

I don't know. Just tossing out what little I've discovered, learned and tried in my short recording journey.
Roy

"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin

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