This might sound silly & I dont know if there is any cure beyond practice but Id like to know if its only me. When I am tuning my guitar just when I think the string is in tune (either with the tuner or the next string) & I listen one more time, it suddenly seems sharp or flat. In fact it can be either at the same time - on the next twang, as I listen to check, suddenly it will sound slightly off (high or low), or in tune again! The harder I concentrate the worse the problem gets.
This leads me to use two computer tuners plus the relative tuning method to get a kind of average but it can still be a time consuming affair. Some days it seems to go smoothly. Other days by the time I get to high E - it is out of tune with the low E and when I go back to check the other strings I get the random situation I describe above. I end up fiddling for ages.
This is a major disincentive for me trying alternative tunings because once Ive got standard tuning sorted, Im damned if Im going to start detuning it on purpose!
FYI, im not tone deaf and it doesnt matter whether the strings are new or not - in fact new strings make it easier (because they invariably go down in tone, whereas this problem is random). I dont think the guitar has a problem because some days it all goes fine. I think its me! :(
“Poetry and Hums aren't things which you get, they're things which get you. And all you can do is go where they can find you.” - Winnie the Pooh
Here's a page with discussion about different methods of tuning which may be helpful for you in getting your guitar well tuned quickly. :D
I wouldn't worry about it too much. It can take years for a pair of ears to get it spot on. Having a good reference source, like a tuner or the pc you mentioned, is always a good starting point.
Best,
A :-)
"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk
Here's a page with discussion about different methods of tuning which may be helpful for you in getting your guitar well tuned quickly. :D
Now that was an eye opener!!
Curved frets!
A neck with 56 frets!
I have investigated different tuning methods and was surprised to read here that the harmonics version is wrong. (I dont get the theory though).
I liked this method (from teh site) because it eliminates the incremental error:
Tune the high E string to a reference: compare
5th fret E on the B string: adjust B
9th fret E on the G string: adjust G
14th fret E on the D string: adjust D
7th fret E on the A string (one octave below); adjust A
5th fret harmonic on the low E string: adjust low E.
I have found this to be the easiest and most reliable way of tuning I have ever used. Since you are listening to the same note all the time, the ear "tunes in" to the overtones and an out-of-tune string sticks out from the rest like a sore thumb. It is also useful for tuning with electronic tuners of doubtful accuracy, as even the cheapest nastiest tuner will (usually) give the same readout for the same input frequency.
Anyone else use this?
Anyone got a better one?
Thanks for the reassurance Alan. (Musically insane?? Wow, - I hope I dont have to wait that long till I can tune a guitar though :D )
Cheers
Ola
“Poetry and Hums aren't things which you get, they're things which get you. And all you can do is go where they can find you.” - Winnie the Pooh
This is a major disincentive for me trying alternative tunings because once Ive got standard tuning sorted, Im damned if Im going to start detuning it on purpose!
"Detuning" is a bad term for changing to a different tuning.
The alternate tunings I usually use, Open D, E or G, make it a whole lot easier to tell when you're in or out of (relative) tune than standard. The open strings make a major triad, and either the root note or the fifth is on three strings, the other is on two strings, and only the third is on a single string. So you hear beat frequencies right off if a string's getting mistuned. It's a lot harder to hear that in standard tuning.
Standard tuning is by far the most challenging tuning I've found to learn to play in.
"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
The alternate tunings I usually use, Open D, E or G, make it a whole lot easier to tell when you're in or out of (relative) tune than standard. The open strings make a major triad, and either the root note or the fifth is on three strings, the other is on two strings, and only the third is on a single string. So you hear beat frequencies right off if a string's getting mistuned. It's a lot harder to hear that in standard tuning.
That's true, but a trick to check the tuning in standard is to play a six-string power chord, either E5: 079900 or A5: 002255, which are only roots and fifths.
The open tuning way doesn't take all that work holding down those strings on the frets. :P
"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
... Open D, E or G, make it a whole lot easier to tell when you're in or out of (relative) tune than standard. The open strings make a major triad, and either the root note or the fifth is on three strings, the other is on two strings, and only the third is on a single string. So you hear beat frequencies right off if a string's getting mistuned...
That's true, but a trick to check the tuning in standard is to play a six-string power chord, either E5: 079900 or A5: 002255, which are only roots and fifths.
OK, I confess I sort of understand the general idea but am lost on the specifics.
Open d, e or g - is that DADGAD etc?
You lost me on - "either the root note or the fifth is on three strings, the other is on two strings, and only the third is on a single string". - But I do understand the beat frequencies bit.
Could you elaborate a bit.
I feel like I should apologise but I guess as this is the beginners forum Im allowed to sound dumb :?
Cheers
Ola
“Poetry and Hums aren't things which you get, they're things which get you. And all you can do is go where they can find you.” - Winnie the Pooh
From the lowest string to the highest:
Open D is DADF#AD. Open E is just the same thing one full step higher, EBEG#BE.
Open G is DGDGBD. There's also Open A, same thing a step higher. EAEAC#E.
In each case, the open strings make a major triad. Look at Open D. D is the root note of the D Major chord (and scale.) F# is the major third. A is the perfect fifth. The three notes together, D, F#, A, make a D Major triad (3 note chord.) For Open G, G is the root, B is the major third, and D is the fifth. The locations of roots, fifths and third are on different strings in the two patterns: Open D and E are RFRTFR. Open G and A are FRFRTF. There's a third pattern of major open tuning, not used as often, Open C: CGCGCE. The pattern for it is RFRFRT. Makes differences in which licks are really easy and handy with fifths or root notes on the outside. (Or a third on the first string with Open C.) Some tunes are easier in one or the other. To a certain extent, your guitar's a whole new instrument when you put it into a different tuning. Alternate tunings are nice tools to know and use.
"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
Back to the original question, yes your ears can be out of tune. Mine are when I sing. The sinus cavity can affect your interpretation of the original sound.
. . . Open D is DADF#AD. Open E is just the same thing one full step higher, EBEG#BE. . . Alternate tunings are nice tools to know and use.
Thanks, I understand now.
I feel braver, so I have taken the plunge and detuned - oops! - REtuned :wink: ONE string so that I can try Davids lesson on Amazing Grace. So far it has been painless retuning & un-re-tuning so maybe I'll venture further one day.
To a certain extent, your guitar's a whole new instrument
I think that is my problem - Im still a novice at this first instrument! :?
There is so much to learn just with the strings the way they are and alternate tunings multiply the permutations. Just the thought makes my brain hurt.
Interesting to know my ears can go out of tune - I've just been swimming and have got water in my ears - I think they are in open G right now :)
Cheers
Ola
“Poetry and Hums aren't things which you get, they're things which get you. And all you can do is go where they can find you.” - Winnie the Pooh
Just came across some interesting info on strings - apparently strings (made out of polymers) have a memory effect and tend to drift back to where they have been before (pitch-wise).
I forgot to note where I read it (I think it was a forum on one of the links in the replies above) but one of the replies suggested that one should always run through the tuning process two or three times because strings will drift a bit immediately after adjustment.
If it is polymers then it shouldnt affect metal strings Id have thought.
Any comments on this?
Ola
PS: My strings/ears seem to be behaving these days
“Poetry and Hums aren't things which you get, they're things which get you. And all you can do is go where they can find you.” - Winnie the Pooh
When things are under tension, like strings, they often stretch or break. Strings usually strecht, most of the time. So you tune it again and again until it stretches no more. That's where the tone of the real pro's come from: stretchless strings that haven't broken yet.
