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counting throughout a song

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 pab
(@pab)
Estimable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 103
Topic starter  

hi - i've been playing now for just over 1 year. have learned a lot in that year and some of it has been very frustrating and some of it very fun.

over the past 2 weeks, i've been working a lot more with a metronome, and specifically trying to count the beats. right now, i'm counting them out loud. in basic 4/4 time, i'm counting 1&2&3&4&, then repeating. a number of my songs are 8th notes.

what i've noticed are two things:
1. it is extrememly difficult (for me) to count throughout a song, and even counting through, say, 4 measures and playing correctly while counting is very difficult. i keep forgetting which note should be on the beat. i'm playing so that the first 8th note is on the click, the 2nd 8th note is not, and the third is on the click (and so on).

2. it is extrememly frustrating (for me) to do this for longer than, say, 15 minutes at a time. i have to turn off the metronome at that time and just doodle or leave the guitar as at that point it's mentally fatiguing.

my questions are:
1. do experience guitar players count throughout the song (ie 1&2&3&4&) for the whole thing?
2. if so, is it something that others have had to work hard at and (hopefully) have experienced the same frustration that i feel and have worked through it?
3. are there any suggestions that have helped others?

i realize that the 1&2&3&4& is very basic and there are countless variations, but that's what i'm working on now.

thanks!

paul


   
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 lars
(@lars)
Noble Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 1120
 

my questions are:
1. do experience guitar players count throughout the song (ie 1&2&3&4&) for the whole thing?
2. if so, is it something that others have had to work hard at and (hopefully) have experienced the same frustration that i feel and have worked through it?
3. are there any suggestions that have helped others?

dunno about experienced but anyways
1) I (think I) do explicit fine grained couniting only when in doubt about the rhythm. In order to learn something I count and play and repeat ad nauseum. Once I know a piece more or less I don't actually count, I more feel the beat and tap it with my foot - I can't help it, I have to concentrate real hard not to tap my foot when playing
2) I have been playing various instruments for almost 30 years - so I think it has developed somewhat along the road. But I recognize the frustration from my daughter (10 - no offense! ) on the violin. She has to concentrate hard to count, so hard that forgets the playing. I think it has something to do with being able to "internalize" the beat - your own built in metronome
3) practice... ? ;-)

good luck
lars

...only thing I know how to do is to keep on keepin' on...

LARS kolberg http://www.facebook.com/sangerersomfolk


   
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(@matteo)
Honorable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 557
 

hi mate

i do not count, at least not in an explicit way. What I'm doing and that most player do, is to keep the beat with the foot, expecially when I'm playing the most difficult passages of a song. That's an invaluable tool to play on time. From my experience there are three excercises to learn to play in time:

a) learn to keep the beat with the foot
b) learn to move the hand in time with the foot playing quavers (this means to play a downstroke when you tap your foot and an upstroke when you raise your foot);
c) learn to move the hand in time with the foot playing semi-quavers (this means to play a downstroke and an upstroke when you tap your foot and a downstroke and an upstroke when you raise your foot);

Do each of these exercises five minutes a day with a metronome, remembering to mute the strings with your left hand. Suggested initial speeds: 120 bpm for exercises a) and b), 60 for exercise c). Then speed'em up if you wish.

Let me know if you have any trouble

cheers

Matteo


   
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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Whether experienced players count depends on the music.

Many forms are so familiar that I don't count. If I'm doing a 12-bar blues, I know where the changes are by "feel". Other song structures, like a 16 bar AABA (which covers many "standards") I'm probably not going to count if I know the chord progression.

But for other tunes it's essential. Sometimes a chart will have odd rhythm figures or a nasty set of chord changes or a modulation that starts on an off beat. For tunes like that - or if I'm sight reading and I see the chart is loaded with ties or dotted notes, I know it's syncopated... so I'm counting like mad - if I don't, I'll screw up. And like an old percussion teacher of mine said, if you can't say it... you can't play it :)

The good news is - if you can keep it up for 15 minutes, you CAN count. Practice will make you better at it, and playing music that challenges you rhythmically will keep you interested. And 15 minutes is more than enough for almost any song.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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 pab
(@pab)
Estimable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 103
Topic starter  

thanks everyone. i think it would be easier if i was using a pick but i'm doing fingerstyle. with a pick i could concentrate on just up and down, but not with the fingers. i do believe though that it is getting better but still frustrating. the 15 minutes is not on one song. i can do a few minutes on one song and then i need to do a different one (or a different section of the same song). i'll still be working on counting but not on exactly the same thing or same place (if i stayed for 15 minutes on the same section, i would just want to stop using the metronome altogether - or throw it out the window!).

thanks again,

paul


   
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(@wes-inman)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 5582
 

Myself, I prefer a drum machine to a metronome. I like to hear accents like the snare or kick drum. I do not actually count when I play, like Noteboat said, I play by feel, and the accents establish this feel. Hope you know what I mean.

Sometimes you run into more complicated music where you have to count it out at first. But again, even here I try to find the "feel" for the music. Once I get the feel down I can play music like this no problem.

But it's more difficult to find this feel (at least for me) with a metronome with continuous monotonous clicks.

If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis


   
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(@denny)
Reputable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 452
 

If you do tap your foot, it helps to use the leg opposite the one the guitar rests on. That way, the guitar isn't moving up and down. I know it's not a lot of movement, but it can still be distracting.

Denny


   
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(@clau20)
Reputable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 351
 

I had difficulties with the beat and the metronome before... Still have difficulties with the metronome, I like to play with backing track to get the sound of the drums instead of the BIP - BIP - BIP from the metronome.

I was also counting, but try to feel the beat instead of counting... Easy to say, not easy to do, but HEAR the beat, feel it, that's what my teacher told me. It comes with practice, as always...

But you can also buy a metronome for the drummers. You have much more possibility with that. You can have the click for every note, the up beat and the down beat that has different sounding on the metronome.

" First time I heard the music
I thought it was my own
I could feel it in my heartbeat
I could feel it in my bones
... Blame it on the love of Rock'n'Roll! "


   
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 pab
(@pab)
Estimable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 103
Topic starter  

what i'm working on right now with my teacher is what he calls "getting started solos". they are about 12 to 15 measures of simple parts of pentatonic scales (which i've learned through previous lessons and work) using hammer ons and pull offs and different rhythms. some notes will start on the "and" and some on the "one", and with using a swing tempo, it takes a bit of getting used to.

what he's indicated to me is that when you are improvising, you need to be able to count. in addition, i talked with him yesterday and he basically said what noteboat said - that hard parts he's basically counting like crazy but he doesn't count through the whole song if he knows it well. also, he won't be doing all "1 and 2 and" etc, but for easy parts will do "1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4". that makes it easier.

the syncopated rhythms with the swing tempo sure take some time to learn, but i've gotten better at them. it's amazing how doing the same two notes in a row, but with a different rhythm, alters the song.

btw wes, i saw you mentioned the usage of drumbeats. that wouldn't be the hd-8 that you're so high on in your other posts now would it? i've read your posts and have thought long and hard about getting one. the only problem is that it is about $250 more than the br600 here in canada, and that might just push it beyond what i will spend. not sure i need the hard drive or the cd creating possibilities, but then again i might get the H4 instead of either of them (but no fun drums to play around with!). decisions decisions.

thanks everyone for your posts! they've been helpful and appreciated.

paul


   
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(@matteo)
Honorable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 557
 

hi Paul

I'm never been in guitar solos since i'm only a rhythm player (I can barely play some pentatonic scales :-)!!!), but if you play in swing style i guess it is more important to feel the rhythm than to count. To explain myself better I've never really learnt to play shuffle rhythm or blues thinking about playing the first and the third note of a triplet, I merely learnt how it should sound and imitate it (of course basing myself on the beat to keep track). If you play with alternate picking there's a small tip that can helps you: it helps to play a small circle with your right hand before starting the upstroke: this way you get a bit of delay that gives you that swinging feel!

Matteo


   
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(@quarterfront)
Reputable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 225
 

Chiming in even though most everything's been said already.... For what it's worth I've been playing about 3 years now and still have trouble tapping my foot while I play - though I'm getting better at this. Walking & chewing gum deficiency here, I guess. But just keep pluggin' away at it, it'll come.

As for suggestions, I have one that's maybe a little off topic but not too far, and which I didn't see mentioned above. If you're using sheet music and/or tab, mark the beats in pencil. Find the beats and pencil in vertical bars dividing the measures into beats. Not exactly a rocket science level suggestion but if you aren't already doing it you might find it helpful.


   
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(@matteo)
Honorable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 557
 

Chiming in even though most everything's been said already.... For what it's worth I've been playing about 3 years now and still have trouble tapping my foot while I play - though I'm getting better at this. Walking & chewing gum deficiency here, I guess. But just keep pluggin' away at it, it'll come.

As for suggestions, I have one that's maybe a little off topic but not too far, and which I didn't see mentioned above. If you're using sheet music and/or tab, mark the beats in pencil. Find the beats and pencil in vertical bars dividing the measures into beats. Not exactly a rocket science level suggestion but if you aren't already doing it you might find it helpful.

hi mate

being able to keep the beat with the foot it is maybe the most important ability you must learn in the rhythmic side of music. It is not only that it helps you a lot in keeping time but also that it connects you more intensly with the beat, it makes you really feel the rhythm. Also it helps you if you're playing alone without metronome or a drummer. Really I'm not joking. It is also quite easy to learn if only you play the correct excercises: devote some minutes each day for a couple of weeks (even 10 minutes are enough) to play your foot alongside the click of the metronome, then try to tap your foot to teh beat each time you listen to some music. It should be enough to learn it, then do the execrcises I suggested to syncronize the right hand movement with the foot and you'll see that in a few weeks your guitar playing it'll be a lot groovier!

Cheers
Matteo


   
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(@wes-inman)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 5582
 

PAB

To answer your question on the Zoom HD-8, I have been using the drum machine to a Zoom pedal my brother gave me at Christmas. But the HD-8 has a great drum machine I have played through many times. I would not call myself an expert at building the drum parts for the few songs I've recorded. They have an "easy" method I really like and use. But you can build drum parts one note at a time and have many various drum kits to choose from.

I would recommend it over the Boss simply because of memory. You can only record a very few songs on the Boss, I've estimated I could record about 250 songs on the Zoom. It has WAY more memory.

It comes with a 200 page manual that seems overwhelming on first look, but once I sat down and read it slowly I found it to be very well written and super easy to understand. It takes you step by step through any process. And this thing will do a lot. You can completely edit with ease, you can even stretch or compress time. The effects are pretty darn good too. I was recording in just 30 minutes, and after completing the first song I barely had to reference the manual anymore. It is very easy to use once you are familiar with it.

But the memory is a huge difference. That is why I skipped on the Boss.

Here is a very simple song I recorded on the HD-8. It was my second song, so I was still getting to know it. But I used the drum machine, I played guitar through a bass simulation for the bass, and used two of the Zooms distortions for the guitar. I also used a vocal short delay/reverb the Zoom has for vocals. It has quite a few vocal effects in addition to the guitar/bass effects. Anyway, here it is:

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6047886

The distortions on this unit are pretty awesome IMHO.

If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis


   
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