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How long to become good?

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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

This discussion reminds me of one of my students.

He's 16, and has been playing for 3 years. When he started, he played a lot, formed a band, and started gigging at the age of 14. Granted, the music he was playing - punk/ska - wasn't technically demanding, but he was getting paid to play. He met other musicians in the same genre, and started to play in their bands as well.

So now he's 16, and he comes to me for lessons. At the first lesson, I ask him what his goals are, and he tells me he wants to get better at playing. I ask what he means by that, and he says:

When I first started, it was like I got to be very good very fast. Then all of a sudden I hit a wall, and I feel like I haven't improved at all in the last couple of years.

That's a pretty fair assessment. He's self-taught using internet tab, and he managed to learn every tune he needs for the bands he played with. He's done that without ever letting his pinky touch a string, and without ever using an upstroke. But by the standards of his genre, he is not just 'good' - he plays at a professional level, and works steadily with people 4-5 years older than him.

Now he's not 'just' a 14 year old punk rocker anymore. He's a 16 year old performing musician with rapidly broadening musical tastes, and a lot of the stuff he's listening to, like blues, jazz, and classic rock, he reaizes is beyond his technique. He's no longer 'good enough' in his own eyes.

And that's where the only meaningful judgment happens. I know plenty of other guitarists who can play things he can't... but I don't know many performers who started a professional career at age 14 - so how can anyone (objectively) say he isn't already 'good'?

All I can say for sure is that I'm going to make him 'better' :)

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@anonymous)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 8184
 

I'm wondering, is there a difference between being good as a guitarist and being good as a musician? If my goals were to play lead guitar is like a rock or metal band, how technical would I have to be with the guitar? What if I was playing guitar and singing but there was another guitarist in the band? Would I have to be as technical or could I get away with strumming a few chords? What if I was singing and playing guitar but was the only guitarist in the band (ie. Kurt Cobain, Billie Joe Armstrong)? Would strumming chords be enough?

Loaded questions I know, but I wonder if I or any other person were in a band, would audiences have different expectations of them based on their role(s) in the band?


   
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(@sparrow-aka-honor-roller)
Trusted Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 55
 

hummerlein, is there a tab available for that song?

I doubt it. I could send you a pdf of the standard notation if you wanted.

That'd be great, can hotmail do pdf? if so [email protected]
thanks much


   
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(@kingpatzer)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

OWA -- never confuse success with talent.

Some of the most untalented hacks have become very very rich playing the most ludicrously unmusical of things while some very very good musicians struggled in obscurity for decades.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@anonymous)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 8184
 

What I mean is, hard to phrase this, I mean, I've seen the posts on here and people do expect a certain amount of skill out of guitarists. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

So let's say I'm in a band, I'm playing, maybe strumming 4 or 5 chords, nothing fancy. Am I being unmusical? Now what if I'm the lead singer as well and I'm singing over these chords? Does that make me more musical in the audience's eyes?

What if a guitarist my not be technically skilled but has other skills. Like arranging music, writing lyrics and singing them. Does that make them more of a musician? Does it make up for their lack of technical prowess on the guitar?


   
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(@kingpatzer)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

OWA --

And you're missing the point of my response.

No amount of musical skill means you make it as a musician. No amount of other skills "make up" for lack of musical skill. It isn't a scale where if you get so many points on the test you get a paycheck.

There are people who had great careers as musicians who could only play 3 or 4 chords.

There are people who are ungoldy talented on the instrument who've never once earned a paycheck for playing.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@anonymous)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 8184
 

I understood your response, it just didn't answer my question.

My question is, when considering how good you are, as a musician, should you being weighing in other skills as well? Skills that while are musical, aren't related to the guitar.

For example, I want to be lead singer in a band. So should how good I am include vocal skills as well? Or should I only worry about the guitar? At least when starting out anyway.

My question is more about what the guitarist should consider in terms of skill, not what it takes to suceed.


   
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(@rocker)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 1128
 

owa,

there is a big difference between a guitarist, and someone who plays guitar, do you want to be a singer who plays a guitar, or do you want to be a guitarist who sings?

even god loves rock-n-roll


   
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(@donzo)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 31
 

I'm kinda shy about playing the guitar around other people (other than immediate family - making them suffer is part of being a family). I've been playing the guitar for almost a year but I don't practice as much as I should...

Anyway, last weekend I was banging away on a few songs from the Easy Song Database, when a friend of mine who has played the guitar for several years came over and heard me as my wife let him in the door. He came into the kitchen where I was hacking away and said - "Hey, man, I thought you said you suck?"

Its the best compliment I've had on my guitar, and one I truly cherish!

I don't know how long it takes to be good, but now I have a pretty good idea how long it takes before you "don't suck" :)

(i.e., its all relative, man)

Don


   
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(@anonymous)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 8184
 

owa,

there is a big difference between a guitarist, and someone who plays guitar, do you want to be a singer who plays a guitar, or do you want to be a guitarist who sings?

Why do I have to chose? Can't I just play rhythm while singing and do all the fancy leads when I'm not singing?


   
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(@sparrow-aka-honor-roller)
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owa

i think the skills can be separate from music themselves, someone who shreds might not be very musical in a lot of the techniques they practise daily. But those skills definitely transfer over to the music they play. i'm more of one for music in itself but i can respect slayer for both its music and the intensity of the guitar playing. I would say, since you used Kurt Cobain as an example, his skill was more lyrics and songwriting than the actual technical playing of guitar. And that CAN be a skill, it's not always natural talent, it can be experience you build. Of course it'd be incredible to be able to play like Reinhardt well and sing at the same time. People would surely respect you for that and enjoy the music. But you have to think that Neil Young and Johnny Cash wrote some songs that aren't all that hard, quite simple in fact, And they have some of the best music out there. You could defintely play simple rhythms and sing and make great music. If your skill is great, unique lyrics and singing, there will be people who prefer you to more technical bands. If you're in a genre that often gets respect for technicality though, you're going to need a heavy dose of originality if you don't have the technical side. And theres definitely expectations of roles in a rock band, if you lack in certain elements, you likely have to make up for them in others.


   
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(@jonetoe)
Reputable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 365
 

I think I know what OWA is saying. I can strum chords in time, sing and sometimes use interesting strum patterns but the strum patterns is as far as my technical abilities go for now. I cannot go from a strum pattern to say a 'fill' with single notes or arpeggio's and stay on beat. If I weren't so lazy I should take the time to learn one of david hodge's lessons the right way. Having said that I always thought of finding a better guitarist who can fill the spots I can't just to see what it would sound like


   
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(@voodoo_merman)
Reputable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 368
 

Lets say it takes 1000 years to get "good" (whatever that word might mean to you). Would you still pick up your guitar everyday knowing this?

If you answered yes to this question, then you are a real guitarists. You play b/c it makes you feel good and it fills a void in you. To you, playing the guitar is the reward in itself.

If you answered no, that means that you are a sane human being and you want to play well so other people will look and see how cool you are. Playing guitar for you is a means to an end.

Knowing how long it takes to get good is of very little importance. And, if you think about it, its against what guitar playing is all about. I can easily imagine the guitar gods becoming enraged by such blasphemy.

We all want to be "good" but its more important that we realize that being good is only a secondary reward of guitar playing.

At this time I would like to tell you that NO MATTER WHAT...IT IS WITH GOD. HE IS GRACIOUS AND MERCIFUL. HIS WAY IS IN LOVE, THROUGH WHICH WE ALL ARE. IT IS TRULY -- A LOVE SUPREME --. John Coltrane


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

OWA, I read your question as "how will I know when I'm good enough at guitar/voice/whatever".

I think the right answer is 'never'... because the moment you decide you're 'good enough' you stop trying to become better!

I notice an interesting divide in the approaches of people in the classical and jazz fields at a professional level - classical musicians that I know never miss a day's practice. They find it essential to maintain their level of technique. Professional level jazz musician's don't stress over practice like that, and sometimes won't even play for days on end. They separate out the technical chops from the artistic ones, and emphasize the creative/improvisational... which means they're 'practicing' practically all the time, thinking about melodies and variations even when they're not playing.

In each case they've decided what they need to work on to continue becoming 'better' - for classical, that means getting deeper into the interpretation of a piece they already know, for jazz players it means figuring out new ways to approach tunes they already know (and hence some decide the best way to get a 'fresh' approach is to put some distance between their fingers and the tune for a while)

In some way music feeds musical chops, so there's no reason to choose to focus on guitar or voice - each will help the other, if you work it 'actively' and think about what you're doing musicically... even listening to CDs will help your performance on both if you're listening actively.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@nicktorres)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 5381
 

Why would you stop to consider whether or not you are a good musician?

Being a guitarist is a vehicle. It may not look/sound so flashy, but who cares? It's all about where it can take you, not what it looks like sitting in the driveway.

Being a musician is about everybody else you meet while traveling. The people that listen to you, (or don't), will give you a clue.

David Hodge, (who is an excellent guitarist and musician), usually describes his playing as "ehhh". But besides being wrong, oh man, is he ever enjoying the journey.

Me? I'm not in the same zip code as David but I have a great time trying to get there.

So enjoy yourself. There is no test at the end. Like I misquoted someone before, it only takes a lifetime, somtimes a little more.

So OWA, I think you got some excellent advice in this thread that did actually answer your question. The answer is you don't, can't or shouldn't and there is no test. Well maybe just this one question. "Are you having fun yet?"

If you ever have a chance go read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" It explains all you need to know about guitar.


   
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