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Learning chord progressions

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 Nuno
(@nuno)
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I am finding some problems when I learn or memorize chord progressions. I am working on jazz standards and also studies in an instruction book. I think it is an issue related to the method I use because I don't have any problems the melody part of the song.

I can learn and play a melody in a couple of days. Perhaps I miss a few notes at the beginning if the melody is new to me. If I already know the melody, I usually play it directly (at least the easy parts, I must search or memorize some notes in the tricky parts). I guess I am able to play the melodies because I have been practicing scales all this time and I am used to them.

However, I do not have a specific practice on chords, I only play the songs. I find problems to memorize the progression. I guess "I am not using my ears" here, I mean I am only memorizing a plain sequence of chords.

I will try a different approach. Yesterday I heard some advices in a video and I reminded how the chess players memorize the board: they do not memorize each piece's position, they memorize groups of pieces as patterns. I will try to memorize the whole song as a sequence of smallest progressions (V-I, ii-V-I, I-ii-vi-V, and so on). I guess perhaps it is a usual way to memorize the songs. I don't know if it will work.

Any advice?


   
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 Nuno
(@nuno)
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Well, that was a good example of how good is my memory... I associated the chess players comment to a documentary I watched some months ago about chess and chess players. The documentary is on Susan Polgar, she is a grandmaster and sister of Judit, who is considered the best woman chess player (I saw some of her matches live and she is awesome).

Anyway... I was reviewing the Klickstein's book looking for some advices and I found he speaks about chess players and how they memorize the board (it is also commented in the documentary).

I am already using some of his advices in my daily practice so I will try to include also some of his recommendations for memorizing. Some tips are in the line of my previous post.

Thanks!


   
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 cnev
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Funny how the brain works when i first started playing it was the opposite for me. I could not remember the chord progressions in a song at all and wondered how I'd ever learn to play songs all the way through.

Now it's no problem but now that I've been trying to do more and more soloing I have a hard time remembering the notes for solo's more than about 12 bars or so.

But I think it's just a matter of how we approached the guitar, you find learning the melodies/single note lines easier than remembering chord progressions and I find it easier the other way around. maybe if we put our heads together we'd make one good guitar player...Ha

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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(@hyperborea)
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Yeah, what you're talking about is "chunking". I think that K. Anders Ericsson was one of the first to do research on this phenomenon in the 70's. He did experiments where they were able to get regular people with no great memory to remember huge strings of numbers. They did it because they chunked that data and remembered a smaller number of facts that generated those numbers. He's the same guy who then went on to do work on experts and how they got to that level. (All of that is really fascinating reading by the way - the popular stuff is a good start but the real papers are not too difficult to get.)

So, for chess players the chunking is that they don't remember the positions of all the pieces but they instead remember stuff like "standard so-and-so defense 8 moves in" for black and "modified such-and-such gambit with the king's bishop one position further back" for white. A non-chess player would instead try to remember the position of all 32 pieces. A beginner would chunk but at a different level and remember less and less accurately.

So, for music this would be using your theory knowledge to remember higher level information about a piece and what to do rather than individual notes or chords. Those without theory knowledge (all those tab only players) have to either rely on "muscle" memory or have a "photographic" memory. Are there higher level things you could use about your chord progression?

Pop music is about stealing pocket money from children. - Ian Anderson


   
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 Nuno
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maybe if we put our heads together we'd make one good guitar player...Ha
LOL!
Are there higher level things you could use about your chord progression?
I am trying to play some jazz standards. By the way, I was studying the Jody Fisher books that you recommended to me some months ago. It is really good. Thank you!

I am analyzing the songs looking for standard progressions (ex. ii-V-I), the form (ex. AABB) and the keys of each progression or part. I will also review the Klickstein's book, it has good advices.

And this is the link to the documentary (perhaps somebody posted the link previously... you know... my memory...):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6378985927858479238 #

"Chunking". Thanks. I will read about it, too.


   
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 cnev
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Hyper, how would knowing theory help me remember a two minute solo? I'm talking about playing someone's solo note for note, obviously if I'm improving I could use theory to guide what I play but I'm talking strictly about playing a cover.

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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(@noteboat)
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I'll throw in my two cents worth... maybe even a nickel's worth :)

Learning jazz standards isn't like learning rock tunes. For one thing, jazz is improvisational by nature - it's never exactly the same twice. For another, you'll end up playing standards in more than one key - a different singer will want it in Eb instead of D, or you'll be jamming with a beginning horn player who's more comfortable in F or Bb.

Learning a rock tune is sort of like memorizing your lines in a script. Learning a jazz tune is more like being able to describe the story line - and there are lots of ways you can convey the same idea.

I'd advise you to first learn the progression as FUNCTIONS rather than chords - if you're in C, that Dm7 is a ii chord. So is a Dm9. And that Fmaj11 is a IV... and so is Fmaj9 or Fmaj7. Mark down any places where the tune changes keys (a dominant chord type that isn't on V is usually a big clue). Then look for chunks of the tune that are arranged in blocks resolving to a I chord - is it a ii-V-I, a IV-V-I, or something else?

Once you've got the basic functions down, try comping the tune using simple versions of those chords - play G7 instead of G7#9, etc. You're basically learning to describe the 'story' of the song.

Once you can play basic changes, then I'd go back to the chords - but before learning the 'real' chords, I'd play them as arpeggios - you'll get a better feel for how the song is put together, and as your ears develop you'll be a step or two ahead in learning how to use substitutions and reharmonize the changes.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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 Nuno
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I'll throw in my two cents worth... maybe even a nickel's worth :)
:D

Tom, your answers are always priceless. Thank you very much!

I was doing a simple 'analysis' of the songs but those tips are really interesting and useful. Perfect explanation.

Perhaps part of the problem is all the new chords and voices that I am trying to include in each new song. I am emphasizing on the details rather to try to get the 'story'...

I'll do it.

Perfect. Thank you very much.


   
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(@joehempel)
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The documentary is on Susan Polgar, she is a grandmaster and sister of Judit, who is considered the best woman chess player (I saw some of her matches live and she is awesome).

Off topic for sure: Susan Polgar was the guest of honor in a chess tournament I was one of the TD's for a couple years ago. The Queen City Classic is a national scholastic tournament, and she did a simul with the kids. She's really a class act, and is really interested in getting women more active in chess.

In Space, no one can hear me sing!


   
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 Nuno
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They are three sisters: Susan, Sofia and Judit. The father tough them to play chess and he was improving the method with each one (Sofia is IM). In fact Judit play in the men tournaments (and I am not sure, I left the chess some years ago but I think she is the only woman that do it and perhaps Susan but I don't remember any Susan's match).

"Play" chess, "play" guitar, you use your hands and your brain simultaneously... perhaps different technique... but bass and pedal also use different technique... Mods could disagree but I think it is not off-topic :wink:

On the other hand, a quick update. I am using the Tom's advice and it seems it works (and it is much funnier!).


   
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(@joehempel)
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No, the whole thing is on topic, I meant my comment about being able to meet and have dinner with her.

The Polgar sisters really are doing great in helping young women learn the game thats for sure! But yeah I agree about the whole using your brain and hands simultaneously.

In Space, no one can hear me sing!


   
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