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Modes ???

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(@william-abeleven)
New Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 1
Topic starter  

Hi everyone - I live on the Gold Coast in Queensland Australia - I've got a question I'd love an answer to.

I've been exploring modes and as far as I can gather, for any given key, all the notes in all the modes are exactly the same, ie songs or music in the Key of C are comprised of CDEFGAB. And all the modes from that Key have exactly those same notes as the Major scale.

So, the question that puzzles me is, what difference does it make which mode you use to solo or play lead guitar for in a song if all the modes have exactly the same notes in them. Why choose the Phrygian pattern over the Ionian pattern if they both have the same notes?

If you're playing a song in the Key of C and the chords in the song are, for example C, G, Am; what difference does it make if I create a solo using notes from the Ionian, or Dorian, or Phrygian or Locrian or any other modes, when they all have the same notes?

Bill Abeleven


   
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(@fretsource)
Prominent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 973
 

The difference lies in which of that series of notes you choose to be the main note, i.e. the tonal centre.
If you play using just the notes, CDEFGAB and you choose to treat C as the tonal centre (or tonic) then you are playing in the 'ionian mode' which sounds exactly like C major. If, on the other hand, you use the same notes but treat D as the tonal centre, then you are playing in the 'dorian mode' and the music will sound very similar to music in the key of D minor (except with raised 6th note) - and not at all like C major.
Edit: By the way, welcome to the forum, :D

Another edit: I was talking about playing completely solo (melody AND chords) before I noticed you mean soloing over a fixed backing in the key of C- If you're playing to something in a fixed key, then yes they're all the same. It's just a fingering convenience to go to a specific scale shape.
Someone can play in C major and you can play B locrian quite harmlessly over it.
But, from a strict modal viewpoint, you're just playing in C major and deferring to the note C as the tonal centre, even if your fingers are playing from the locrian mode scale shape.
You won't hear anything of the true effect of the locrian mode. To hear the real effect try improvising by yourself with chords and melodies from that mode using BCDEFGA with B as the tonal centre. The fact that the tonic chord will be B diminished should be enough to put you off the locrian mode for life.


   
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(@hbriem)
Honorable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 646
 

If you think of them as simply "scales" rather than giving them a special name like "modes", you can envisage them as variations on the major or minor scales.

So, instead of looking at F Lydian as having the same notes as C major (Ionian), think of C Lydian instead.

C major : C_D_EF_G_A_BC or generically 1_2_34_5_6_78

C Lydian: C_D_E_F#G_A_BC or generically 1_2_3_#45_6_78

The major modes are (in order from brightest to darkest):

Lydian: 1_2_3_#45_6_78 (major with a #4)
Ionian: 1_2_34_5_6_78 (AKA the major scale)
Mixolydian: 1_3_34_5_6b7_8 (major with a b7)

The minor modes are (in order from brightest to darkest):

Dorian: 1_2b3_4_5_6b7_8 (natural minor with a major 6th)
Aeolian: 1_2b3_4_5b6_b7_8 (AKA natural minor scale)
Phrygian: 1b2_b3_4_5b6_b7_8 (natural minor with a b2)

Then there's the good-for-nothing, theoretical only mode:

Locrian: 1b2_b3_4b5_b6_b7_8 (natural minor with a b2 and a b5)

--
Helgi Briem
hbriem AT gmail DOT com


   
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(@alangreen)
Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 5342
 

The order of steps and half-steps in each mode is what makes it important.

for example, if you're playing over Dm in the key of C then you'd play a D Dorian, and if you're playing over Dm in the key of F Major you'd want to use a D Aeolian. And so on

Best,

A :-)

"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk


   
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(@hbriem)
Honorable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 646
 

It's a little more complex than that.

Jazzers use Dorian to solo over any minor chord, not just the ii. Why? Because it has no "avoid notes". The b6 of Aeolian is an "avoid note" and sounds sour and dissonant. They'd use it over the iii chord as well, not Phrygian, for the same reason.

And in actual fact, they will very often use Lydian over major chords (I and IV) instead of the Ionian (major), because the #4 (#11) clashes less than the natural 4/11.

Or so I have read. I don't do jazz myself. Nor even improvisation. Or soloing. Unless I plan every note out very carefully beforehand.

--
Helgi Briem
hbriem AT gmail DOT com


   
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