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Speaking of Blues Shuffle...

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Minotaur
(@minotaur)
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Just a matter of curiosity and education for me...

I understand about blues shuffle's turnaround, and 12 bar blues' 12 bars, hence the name. Is there any other major difference between blues shuffle and 12 bar blues? Or am I completely missing the boat?

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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cnev
 cnev
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Well a 12 bar blues is just that 12 bars. The shuffle is the rhythm you play those chords if that makes sense. They are two entirely different things. You could play a 12 bar blues with just straight eighth strumming but that's not a shuffle.

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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jwmartin
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Shuffle is the rhythm you are playing, e.g....

A--2----2----4----4
E--0----0----0----0

12 bar blues is the progression/structure. E E E E A A E E B A E A/E

You can play a 12 bar blues without a shuffle. You can play a shuffle over a 16 bar blues or whatever.

Edit: cnev said basically the same thing, just clearer.

Bass player for Undercover


   
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cnev
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Well at least I got it right

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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Minotaur
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OK, I think I understand. I was going to ask if the rhythm of the shuffle is what makes it different.

When I was in lessons my teacher called this 12 bar blues:
--------------------------------------|
--------------------------------------|
--------------------------------------|
---------------------2-2-4-4--2-2-4-4-|
---2-2-4-4--2-2-4-4--0-0-0-0--0-0-0-0-|
---0-0-0-0--0-0-0-0-------------------| &c.

Then I came across this as a shuffle (Come Together):
e----------------------------------------------
b----------------------------------------------
g----------------------------------------------
d----------------------------------------------
a--2---2-4---2-2---2-4---2-2---2-4---2-2---2-4-
e--0---0-0---0-0---0-0---0-0---0-0---0-0---0-0-

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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cnev
 cnev
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The first picture doesn't really show the whole 12 bars but it also has a shuffle rhythm going on as does the Come Together example.

Each can be independant of the other so you can play a 12 bar blues without a shuffle and you can use the shuffle rhythm without it being a 12 bar blues structure.

But it is quite common to use the shuffle rhythm in a 2 bar blues.

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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Minotaur
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The first picture doesn't really show the whole 12 bars but it also has a shuffle rhythm going on as does the Come Together example.

Here's a better copy of my example...


These came from the blues lessons. Btw that's exactly how I learned to play I Hear You Knocking, which my teacher called 12 bar blues (those images played 2x more for 12 bar blues).
Each can be independant of the other so you can play a 12 bar blues without a shuffle and you can use the shuffle rhythm without it being a 12 bar blues structure.

But it is quite common to use the shuffle rhythm in a 2 bar blues.

OK, I think I got it! Thanks. :)

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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David Hodge
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You're definitely getting it.

Shuffles can be (and are) used in all styles of music.

The main thing about a blues shuffle rhythm is that it's based on the feel of triplets, as opposed to a rock shuffle, which is done with straight eighth notes. Using the E shuffle as an example, a rock shuffle would occur exactly on the eighth notes, so it would be like this:
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +

E - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
B - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
G - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
D - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A - - 2 - - 2 - - 4 - - 4 - - 2 - - 2 - - 4 - - 4 - - - -
E - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - - -

Or this (if you're using three notes in your shuffle):
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +

E - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
B - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
G - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
D - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A - - 2 - - 2 - - 4 - - 4 - - 5 - - 5 - - 4 - - 4 - - - -
E - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - - -

Blues rhythms are based on a triplet feel, or what's also called "swing eighths." There's a good and rather detailed description of this in our "Easy Songs for Beginners" Lesson on Before You Accuse Me if you're interested. The short-and-sweet of it is that you're counting a triplet for each beat but you're playing the shuffle notes on just the first and third part of the triplet. So a two-note blues shuffle would be like this:
1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a

E - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
B - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
G - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
D - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A - - 2 - - - 2 - 4 - - - 4 - 2 - - - 2 - 4 - - - 4 - - -
E - - 0 - - - 0 - 0 - - - 0 - 0 - - - 0 - 0 - - - 0 - - -

And a three-note blues shuffle would be like this:
1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a

E - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
B - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
G - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
D - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A - - 2 - - - 2 - 4 - - - 4 - 5 - - - 5 - 4 - - - 4 - - -
E - - 0 - - - 0 - 0 - - - 0 - 0 - - - 0 - 0 - - - 0 - - -

As Chris points out, "12 bar blues" is about structure, specifically the structure of a blues song (although you'll find many, many, many songs in other genres that have a 12 bar blues structure) while "shuffle" and "blues shuffle" refer to rhythms.

Hope this helps.

Peace


   
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Minotaur
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Yes, that does help. Thanks. I did see the Before You Accuse Me lesson a while ago, but I didn't think I was ready for it. Now I can revisit it, understanding a little more.

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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rparker
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Posts: 5480
 

I really enjoy doing the 12-bar (or whatever bar) blues. Cheating is pretty common from what I understand. I've got a Robert Johnson song book that describes how he always "cheats". Slight variations.

A version of that song in David's "Before You Accuse Me" lesson has either the last bar split or adds a bar at the end of the 5th chord. So in E, I do a quick E7-B7-E7 little thing. Turn around, maybe is what it's called? At any rate, it's surely a can't stop playing music. Hard to stop. I knock off 20-30 minutes everytime I play that. Attack the string different each time through, randomly repeat verses. Stuff like that. It's great fun. Losing yourself in the guitar is gobs of fun. 8)

Roy
"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin


   
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Minotaur
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Topic starter  

Roy...

12 bar blues is "da bomb and da shizznit". :D

One of the easiest 12 bar blues songs is I Hear You Knocking. It's simply E and A! On the A I even picked up the half step up the fretboard, then back to the A. Adds a little interest. Besides you can hear it when Dave Edmunds plays it.

I see the video of Siggi Mertens teaching Get Back using A and D in what appears to me a 12 bar blues. The rhythmn itself sounds no different than I Hear You Knocking, but the vocals make it seem completely different. I know Wes's version of Get Back is different than Sigi's, but I can't make the stretch from fret 5 - 9 yet.

Siggi's I Hear You Knocking

Siggi's Get Back

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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rparker
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Thanks for those links. I'll hit them up soon. Opened and hit the pause button for now. I can tell I'm going to have great fun with "I Hear You Knocking". 8)

Blues is so great. All skill levels can play, and play together and do so for hours. 8)

Roy
"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin


   
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Minotaur
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Thanks for those links. I'll hit them up soon. Opened and hit the pause button for now. I can tell I'm going to have great fun with "I Hear You Knocking". 8)

Glad to help! :D

One thing that frustrated me is the intro to I Hear You Knocking. I want to play it like Dave Edmunds does. I have the power tab, and have to learn how to do it. And then there's the solo. I've tried playing the rhythm by switching between E and A, but I don't think it's right. I think it stays on E the whole solo. I have to study it more.

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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rparker
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I don't know either. Here's the intro as Guitar Pro has it. Heck, just as easy to paste the whole thing. I got sidetracked and went to his Stray Cat Strut video. :oops:

I Hear You Knockin'

Dave Edmunds
Dave - Guitar

H Q E E E E H E E
E||-------------------------|---------------------------|
B||-------------------------|-------6-------------------|
G||-------------------4br~--|--4b~-----------------5b~--|
D||-------------------------|---------------------------|
A||-------------------------|---------------------------|
E||-------------------------|---------------------------|

Q Q E E E E Q Q H W
-----------------11-----------|----------------------|-------------------|
--8---------12b---------------|----------------------|-------------------|
------------------------10br--|--10------------------|-------------------|
------------------------------|----------------------|-------------------|
------------------------------|----------------------|-------------------|
------------------------------|----------------------|-------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|
--------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|
--------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----5-----5-----5-----5--|-----5-----5-----5-----5--|
-----5-----5-----5-----5--|-----5-----5-----5-----5--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
--------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|
--------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|
--------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E H E Q E
--------------------------|--------------------------|------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|--------------5b~-------|
-----5-----5-----5-----5--|-----5-----5-----5-----5--|---------------------3--|
-----5-----5-----5-----5--|-----5-----5-----5-----5--|------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|------------------------|

E E E E Q Q H E Q E E E E E Q E E
--------------------------|------------------------|---------------------------|
-----4~-------------------|--------------5b~-------|-----4~--------------------|
--L-----------------------|---------------------3--|--L------------------------|
------------6--3~---------|------------------------|------------6--3~----6--3--|
--------------------------|------------------------|---------------------------|
--------------------------|------------------------|---------------------------|

PM PM PM PM PM
Q Q Q E E Q E E E E Q Q Q Q Q
-----------------------|-------------------------|----------------------|
-----------------------|-------------------------|----------------------|
--3----1---------------|--3~----3--1--3--1-------|-----------------3----|
------------3----1--3--|-------------------------|------------1---------|
-----------------------|-------------------------|-------1--------------|
-----------------------|--------------------3----|--1-------------------|

E E E E Q E E E E H E E
---------------------------------|----------------------5b~--|
--3br~-----4b~--4--L-------------|-------6-------------------|
--------3------------------4br~--|--4b~----------------------|
---------------------------------|---------------------------|
---------------------------------|---------------------------|
---------------------------------|---------------------------|

E E H E E E E E E Q E E
--------4--------------6b~--|-----6--------------------|
--4br~----------------------|--6-----6--4--------------|
----------------------------|--------------5~----7--5--|
----------------------------|--------------------------|
----------------------------|--------------------------|
----------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E Q Q. E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
------------------------|--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----6------------------|--------------------------|--------------------------|
--7-----7--5~-----------|--------------------------|--------------------------|
------------------------|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
------------------------|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
------------------------|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|
--------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|
--------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----5-----5-----5-----5--|-----5-----5-----5-----5--|
-----5-----5-----5-----5--|-----5-----5-----5-----5--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
--------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|
--------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|

E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
--------------------------|--------------------------|
--------------------------|--------------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|-----3-----3-----3-----3--|
-----1-----1-----1-----1--|-----1-----1-----1-----1--|
--------------------------|--------------------------|

E E E E E E E E E E E Q Q. H E Q E
--------------------------|------------------------|-----------------------|
--------------------------|-----6------------------|--------------5b-------|
-----5-----5-----5-----5--|--7-----7--5~-----------|--------------------3--|
-----5-----5-----5-----5--|------------------------|-----------------------|
-----3-----3-----3-----3--|------------------------|-----------------------|
--------------------------|------------------------|-----------------------|

E E E E Q Q H E Q E E E E E Q E E
-------------------------|-----------------------|--------------------------|
-----3b------------------|--------------5b-------|-----3b-------------------|
--L----------------------|--------------------3--|--L-----------------------|
------------6--3---------|-----------------------|------------6--3----6--3--|
-------------------------|-----------------------|--------------------------|
-------------------------|-----------------------|--------------------------|

Q Q Q E E Q E E E E Q Q Q Q Q
-----------------------|------------------------|----------------------||
-----------------------|------------------------|----------------------||
--3----1---------------|--3----3--1--3--1-------|-----------------3----||
------------3----1--3--|------------------------|------------1---------||
-----------------------|------------------------|-------1--------------||
-----------------------|-------------------3----|--1-------------------||

Duration Legend
---------------
W - whole
H - half
Q - quarter
E - 8th
S - 16th
T - 32nd
X - 64th
. - note dotted
|-n-| - n-tuplets

Tablature Legend
----------------
L - tied note
x - dead note
g - grace note
(n) - ghost note
> - accentuded note
NH - natural harmonic
AH - artificial harmonic
TH - tapped harmonic
SH - semi harmonic
PH - pitch harmonic
h - hammer on
p - pull off
b - bend
br - bendRelease
pb - preBend
pbr - preBendRelease
brb - bendReleaseBend
n/ - tremolo bar dip
n - tremolo bar dive
-/n - tremolo bar Release up
/n - tremolo bar inverted dip
/n - tremolo bar return
-n - tremolo bar Release down
S - shift slide
s - legato slide
/ - slide into from below or out of upwards
- slide into from above or out of downwards
~ - vibrato
W - wide vibrato
tr - trill
TP - tremolo picking
T - tapping
S - slap
P - pop
< - fade in
^ - brush up
v - brush down

Roy
"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin


   
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Minotaur
(@minotaur)
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Thanks Roy. I'll add that to my sheets for it. Maybe someone will add that to the ESD.

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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