Skip to content
Stupid question abo...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Stupid question about barre chords

14 Posts
9 Users
0 Likes
2,116 Views
(@thenovice)
New Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2
Topic starter  

Hi, I'm new to these boards and to the guitar! I have a very dumb question but I am paranoid about forming bad habits.

I'm currently working on playing F7 and Fm7 shape barre chords. The D string seems to always be muted no matter how hard I press or what shape my index finger is in. I do seem to have some success if I press upwards with my left arm while holding that barre. This results in all the strings bending as I play the chords.

My question is would this be a bad habit to form? Pressing upwards with my left arm seems awkward and I imagine it could be strenuous after a short duration. Is this a normal guitar technique or should I go back to trying different finger angles and strengthening my left hand?


   
Quote
(@gosurf80)
Eminent Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 28
 

Barre chords are really tough to get. I bet if you look closely you'll find that the D string is falling right under crease in your finger at the first joint. If it's there, then your finger isn't applying enough pressure to properly fret the note. Try moving just your index finger to get the string in a different position.

Alternatively, you can detune a 1/2 or whole step and use a capo. The lessened string tension and the lower action the capo provides will make the chord shapes easier to form and help build strength in the meantime.

Don't give up, but don't hurt yourself either!

Good luck!


   
ReplyQuote
(@minotaur)
Noble Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1089
 

Instead of pushing your arm up, push it forward. You may have to drop your (left) shoulder; push your elbow forward. There should be a gap between the bottom of the fretboard and your palm. Also, try rolling your index finger slightly towards the headstock. Use mainly the outside of your index finger to barre.

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
ReplyQuote
(@chris-c)
Famed Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 3454
 

Hi,

That actually sounds like a smart question to me - not a dumb one. You don't want to spend weeks working on the wrong thing.

I'm sure that it doesn't go the same for everybody, but at one stage I tried to write out what was going on for me. Excuse the length, but I'll just paste it in, just in case it might help. Here's how it went...

Problems:

I have “Bad Fingers”. :shock:

The human finger is an uneven and knobbly thing, and we all have slightly different joint lengths, degrees of firmness of flesh etc. Plus guitar neck widths vary as well. Even a capo (which is smooth, firm, level and purpose built for the job) may require careful positioning if it's not to buzz. So what chance did my gnarly looking finger have??

I had “Bad Strings” too. :evil:

They just wouldn't cooperate properly. If I got one string working then another one muted or buzzed. It felt like trying to herd cats...

To round it out I apparently have a “Bad Brain” as well. :?

It seems to forget the good positions. One day I nailed a barre, just the once, but the next day it was back to being crap again...

Solutions:

Bad Fingers.

My index finger is not really ever going to be asked to hold all 6 strings down perfectly all on its own, while I strum every single one. What is actually going to happen is that I will often only require ‘partial barres' - which means that I only need to hold down the strings that I'm then going to strum or pick. (A little theory is handy here. You can save a whole lot of grief by knowing which strings you don't actually need. But if you can do it by ear too - just experiment, listen and work out which are the essential sounds for that moment in the song).

When I do need a full barre I'll also only need the index finger to neatly hold down SOME of the six strings - because the others will be held down by the chord shape in front of the barre. This allowed me to ‘hide' any problem areas of my barring finger behind the fingers that were doing the regular job out front.

I also abandoned the unhelpful idea that I should try and turn my barring finger into some sort of rigid ‘capo substitute' that would do exactly the same thing in every circumstance. Instead, I now see it as doing many slightly different jobs (i.e. fretting various different combinations of strings - usually only 1,2, or 3) while the other fingers do the rest. Even though it might feel as if it's doing pretty much the same thing each time, when I stop and look, that's not the case. It's learned to adjust for the job at hand, and just do the work it needs to for that chord or shape. Sometimes that means holding particular strings down cleanly and sometimes others.

Instead of one inflexible barre position I apparently have a number of them - each subtly adjusted depending on which strings have to be held.

So I guess that there were three answers there:
a) Partial barres and selective strumming/picking are often the way to go for many song arrangements
b) Hiding the nasty bits and
c) Accepting that it was better to develop a number of useful barre strategies rather than some kind of rigid ‘one size fits all' super-barre.

Unhelpful strings.

OK, part of the answer is already above, but positioning the finger is crucial. I tried every tip and strategy that I could find. These included placing my finger fairly flat, slightly rolled back, reasonably straight, partly curled, behind the fret, just on it, etc. Initially I was trying so hard to stop strings buzzing and/or muting that I was gripping the neck like a vice and trying to push the finger clean through the fretboard.

But over time I noticed that I was pressing more and more lightly as my positioning was getting better. As I mentioned above, this also meant that it was learning to put the finger down in more than one way. Now my finger seems almost to just lie there, and it's hard to remember the first weeks when it was a nightmare trying to get it to work.

Part of the process involved not just trying slightly different placing up and down the neck, but also across it. In other words, sticking more or less fingertip over the side edge of the neck or even stopping it part way across for partial barres.

Bad Brain.

This is a major pain with learning, but it's going to happen anyway, so I believe that it's better to be relaxed about it and have confidence that your basic method will pay off over time. I think that the brain is perfectly capable of picking which bits worked (and filing them under “Wow! Keep that one”) and which bits didn't (and filing it under “Ouch! Don't keep repeating that one...”) - but only if you're properly paying attention to what's going on. The process involves many hundreds (if not thousands) of tiny adjustment over time, so the quality of your listening and concentration is very important. Just doing lots of repeats and trusting to luck doesn't really cut it.

So I took it all gently. Instead of trying to nail it all in a few hours I just added a few minutes experimenting with barres at the end of each day's playing. I listened carefully as I tried various positions but didn't stress out about getting immediate results. So long as I was providing regular feedback between the fingers, ears and brain, and paying good attention to the process, I believed that they would be able to gradually sort it out. And indeed they did. It's now working pretty well, and it's only needing a surprisingly light touch too. It's definitely not always perfect yet - but then there really is no Perfect, there's only Improvement Over Time. Even the best players know that there's always another level of ability to aim for.....

Good luck with it all. :)

Cheers,

Chris


   
ReplyQuote
(@dylanbarrett)
Prominent Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 628
 

Hi.

Ahhhh, the great barre.... don't us beginners just LOVE it.... :roll:

Although I've only really learned one position of a barre that I can now get a reasonable transition to (F) by practicing everyday for about twelve months... :cry: I may not be in the best position to offer advice, but....

Interesting you saying about pressing your arm upwards... I found that I get a clearer sounding barre by pushing my finger upwards into the strings - not enough to bend them but it settles them nicely into the fret. I've also found that the low E can also cause a problem in clarity and have found that the finger can be resting nearly on top of the fret of the lower E rather than behind it like you would fret a normal string...

That should get the purists on my back... but hey, it works for me on the F - maybe I should wait and see what other problems lie in store...

Rock on!
D 8)

I'm nowhere near Chicago. I've got six string, 8 fingers, two thumbs, it's dark 'cos I'm wearing sunglasses - Hit it!


   
ReplyQuote
(@joehempel)
Famed Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 2415
 

Ahhhh, the great barre.... don't us beginners just LOVE it.... :roll:

LOL...I can't hit F, partial or not, either the strings will be muted, or they will buzz, I'm still trying to figure out a comfortable way to do that, occasionally I'll hit it right, but don't know what I do to re-create it, it just kind of happens.....rarely, unless the capo is on the 1st fret, then it's easier :lol:

In Space, no one can hear me sing!


   
ReplyQuote
(@dylanbarrett)
Prominent Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 628
 

LOL...I can't hit F, partial or not

C'mon Joe, I've seen you play quite a bit now and there's nothing wrong in what I hear... unless I'm wrong about the chord I am professing to be able to play.... Full barre on the first fret, E shape on the second and third frets?

Oh, well. Even if I'm wrong, my little tip still holds...

Rock on!
D 8)

I'm nowhere near Chicago. I've got six string, 8 fingers, two thumbs, it's dark 'cos I'm wearing sunglasses - Hit it!


   
ReplyQuote
 cnev
(@cnev)
Famed Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4459
 

Hmm I think you need to really look at your finger positions and make sure they are coming straight down on the strings and that they aren't muting additional strings. Hold the chord and then pick each string to make sure they are all ringing clear and there are no muted strings. If you can do that just strum slowly while holding that position being sure nothing changes. Then you can practice very slowly getting your hands into that shape and strumming. You may have to keep going back and slow it down to get the strings ringing but it will come with time.

Keep adjusting this position until you can get all the strings to ring clear. Make sure you aren't using a death grip and that your arm and shoulder are relaxed.

It should not take a lot of force to make a barre chord nor should your strings be moving when you form the chord. If the strings are moving you need to adjust your hand position so that they don't move.

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
ReplyQuote
(@thenovice)
New Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2
Topic starter  

So I'm starting to make progress on playing the Fm7 and F7 shape chords. It turns out that I needed to make my index finger straighter. I was reluctant to do this because I can only make my finger straighter by arching my wrist a lot (I have short fingers). I also can only play this chord with my leg crossed as it gives a bit more of an angle.

I figure if I just keep practicing these two chords I will be able to play them without as much of an arch in my wrist and without having to cross my legs. I previously had to play F Major under these conditions but can play it comfortably now.

Thanks guys for the great replies!


   
ReplyQuote
(@stargazer)
Eminent Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 16
 

It's also about strength in the fingers.

I remember when I was learning (a long time ago!) I found that holding a barre on the first fret was difficult. Much easier to hold the shape further up the fretboard, say on the fifth, where if you form the open E shape in front of the barre will give you A. So try that, get to the point where you can do it easily and then move down the neck one fret at a time. You'll soon get to the point where you can hold a barre on the first fret as easily as you can on the fifth.


   
ReplyQuote
(@chris-c)
Famed Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 3454
 

Hi again,

Here's a link to an article with photos that show some of the the various different angles and possibilities for the partial barre chords that I mentioned above. The original article was on Jamie Andreas' own site, but it's been widely quoted and linked to from other sites.

Barre Chords with Photos

The article explains, using clear pictures, why it's good not to try and use just one shape for all occasions. As it says:

People new to the technique of barring tend to think very one-dimensionally about barring. They tend to think that they should just lay that bar finger flat out across the strings, this is usually not the case (I would say "never" but that is a dangerous word to use when it comes to guitar technique!).

It then explains what works better. It's well worth a look, especially for those who think barring is just about treating your finger as if it was a flat surface that can just be slapped on like a capo.

Cheers,

Chris


   
ReplyQuote
(@minotaur)
Noble Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1089
 

Great find Chris. Bookmarked, and will be used. :D

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
ReplyQuote
(@chris-c)
Famed Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 3454
 

It's also about strength in the fingers.

Hi,

Well, sort of...

I think that strength is often over-rated and misunderstood when it comes to guitar. It's not so much strength that we lack as beginners - especially in a naturally dominant finger like the index - it's accuracy and flexibility, which isn't really the same thing. Sure, a bit of extra strength in the pinkie is useful, but even there it's getting the ring finger and pinkie under proper control that's the big deal.

Beginners certainly try and use sheer force to hold the strings down initially (for all forms of playing, not just barre chords) but as they get more experienced their placement gets better and the 'brute force' approach fades away. The infamous 'death grip' relaxes, and it becomes more about touch and balance. Or it should do! :mrgreen:

Even a child can hold a string down well enough to sound a clear note, using only light pressure on the string - provided the finger is put in the right place. I just turned my guitar upside down and tried to use my pinkie (the one that I've never ever used in guitar at all) to play the thickest string on my steel string acoustic, on the fret closest to the nut. No trouble at all, and no issue with strength - because I know where to place it for best effect.

I think that guitarists often think they're getting a lot 'stronger' when what's mostly happening is that they're getting a little bit stronger perhaps but a lot more accurate with their placement and more flexible and generally controlled. In other words - learning to Press Smarter not Harder.

I'd suggest that working on accuracy pays much better long term dividends than trying to build a stronger index finger. I'm not saying that sheer force can't work, but I do think that concentrating on that as a solution for barre chords is more likely to lead you in the wrong direction, and actually have you playing inefficient shapes for longer. Something to think about anyway... :)

Cheers,

Chris


   
ReplyQuote
(@bkangel)
Estimable Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 118
 

This is all really interesting, and prods me into reapplying myself to the dreaded barre chord!

I can usually get a partial barre chord, but I really struggle with full barre chords. I looked at the link that was recommended, and I will go back and read it more thoroughly, but I did chuckly a little to myself. My whole finger is about the length of 2/3 of that one!

I did have one "ah huh!" moment when I was focusing on getting an even result on a full bar. Rather than concentrating on pressing down my finger on the fret, I focused on lifting my first knuckle (the one that joins the hand and would make a punch if I was a little violent :twisted: ).

Changing my focus away from the "press" and into the "lift" seemed to take the tension or force out of the finger and improved the sound (it does take a degree of concentration, and I certainly don't have it down as a 100% result yet).

Disclaimer: Newbie giving advice.

What I lack in talent and natural ability, I will have to make up with stubborness.


   
ReplyQuote