Tune down and capo a 12-string all the time?

I've never heard this about a 12er, but I have heard it about Baritone guitars. Maybe you're thinking about that?....or I've lost my bloody mind.

No not at all. Any decent 12 string is braced to be in standard tuning with a specific maximum size strings. For example 11's. It's all about tension and what the guitar can handle. A neck with a truss rod isn't going to bend. The worry is the body and top wanting to collapse structurally.

Now if you tune down those smaller 11's strings are WAY too floppy so you actually install heavier strings like 12s and as long as you are at tuned down those strings will feel nice and sound better.

This same principle also works for baritone 6 strings and long scale baritone 12 strings like the leadbelly model. When you go to a longer scale like 26.5" or 27 inches from nut to saddle you automatically have alot more tension so these are generally tuned by default 1 or 2 steps down. They also have heavy strings on a baritone. They produce a big sound too. If you tuned those up to standard with those heavy 13 gauge strings for example you could damage the top.

So the scale of the guitar is the huge factor. Standard guitars usually range around 24.5 - 25.5 inches from nut to saddle.

Baritone guitars usually range from 26.5 and higher in my opinion. So in summary a longer scale has more tension for the same set of strings in the same tuning. A shorter scale has less tension with the same strings and same tuning. If you reduce the tension strings feel more slinky. If they are too slinky or TOO much tension those are both not desirable. To help reduce tension you can go to lighter strings. To add tension you can use bigger strings.

In a nutshell what you were told is kinda right but misses the big point. I play a 12 string in standard tuning all the time and it's 25.5" scale and I use 11's and They feel good and I am not worried about anything. Keep in mind the unwounds are doubled so even though that first set of strings are an 11 they are X2 so I actually feel 22.

There is a chart on DiAddario's site somewhere that shows the pounds of tension each set of their strings produces with standard tuning and each specific scale length guitar. So you will see that an average set of strings on a 6 string produce 160 pounds of pull on that bridge and soundboard. Not to mention trying to push the fretboard extention in and collapse the guitar.

Hope that helps :)

I've never heard this about a 12er, but I have heard it about Baritone guitars. Maybe you're thinking about that?....or I've lost my bloody mind.

Nope - definitely 12 stringers. Here are some quotes from random sites discussing 12-strings:
I prefer to tune the instrument down at least one whole step from standard tuning -- often times 1-1/2 steps or even 2 full steps depending on the action (the height of strings from the guitar fingerboard). This is to reduce tension on the neck. I also feel that a 12 string is a more powerful rhythmic instrument and roars better when pitched down.

Another thing about the 12 string (that has been a cause of controversy for years)is the tuning. If you are not going to use "odd tunings" but rather the standard tuning,you may want to consider tuning down one full step . That way you lessen the tension on the neck and top.Just capo up 2 frets and you are at concert pitch.Saves on the finger strain too!And Even tho companies Like Guild claim their 12 strings can be tuned to pitch without a capo,I have found it to be a cause for concern.

The recent makes are sturdier even though many luthiers still recommend to tune it down at least one tone.

If it's written in multiple places, and it makes logical sense, then why take the rick of assuming it is 'horsehockey'?

When I get a 12 string the first thing I'll do is detune it and capo it. It's not like I'll be playing anything above the third fret anyway on a 12-string so no problem with losing a couple of frets.

Any decent 12 string is braced to be in standard tuning with a specific maximum size strings.

Hope that helps :)
LittleBro: Thanks for that info. Very helpful. I'll check out the chart on D'addario's site.

If it's written in multiple places, and it makes logical sense, then why take the rick of assuming it is 'horsehockey'?

I am skeptical of most of what I read on the web, unless I know the source. The posters here at GN are more reliable than at many other sites.

It's not like I'll be playing anything above the third fret anyway on a 12-string so no problem with losing a couple of frets.

That's sort of what led me to ask the question - personally, I would have a problem losing a couple of frets, as many of the acoustic songs I'd want to play on the 12-string go much higher up the neck.

I absolutely NEVER tune down my 12-string, although I do occasionally use a capo.

Would it make sense to build a 12 string guitar that cannot handle the tension of 12 strings?? How long do you think that manufacturer would be in business??

I absolutely NEVER tune down my 12-string, although I do occasionally use a capo.

Isn't yours a semi-hollow electric, EB? If so, the stress really isn't an issue, as the top of the guitar is much stronger than that of a flattop acoustic.

On acoustic flattop 12s, bellying of the top is the big problem and the reason downtuning is often recommended. I don't like to tune down either, as a result the top bellied and the bridge lifted off my Guild. When I repaired it, I installed a Bridge Doctor to counteract bellying caused by the string pull. So now even after the repair, I continue to tune to regular pitch. A Bridge Doctorcan be installed on just about any 12 string.

I have had my 12 string for 3 years now standard tuning, never had one problem with it.

:D

If it's written in multiple places, and it makes logical sense, then why take the rick of assuming it is 'horsehockey'?

When I get a 12 string the first thing I'll do is detune it and capo it. It's not like I'll be playing anything above the third fret anyway on a 12-string so no problem with losing a couple of frets.

Well actually it didn't make sense and that's why I added my professional opinion. I only advise to play and care for your guitars as you wish. There is nothing wrong with tuning down. Oh but if you put a capo on the neck you are also moving up into a bigger neck and usually a smaller radius. So there is a difference moving up the neck with a capo. The sound even changes and you loose bass response. It's not a bad thing just different. Hope that helps. I am not trying to bust anyones chops. Just sharing knowledge.

Sincerely,
Doug

I asked this same question a couple of months ago....got a mixed response, but the general consensus of opinion was tune down and use a capo....

so I did....

then I had to adjust the action....

and retune....

re-adjust the action....

and re-tune....

etc....

ended up flinging the guitar into a corner (not literally...I don't believe in cruelty to guitars!!!!) and leaving it alone...for a couple of weeks, till I went back to standard EADGBE.....

adjusted the action....

re-tuned....

but I've got a decent sound out of it now, and its staying in standard....and I'll second what LittleBrother said about the changed sound, especially bass response.....

:D :D :D

Vic

Would it make sense to build a 12 string guitar that cannot handle the tension of 12 strings?? How long do you think that manufacturer would be in business??

That's precisely why I thought this might all be inaccurate, and yet gnease's experience suggests it may be true.

Thanks all for the discussion.

I believe my guitar is presently strung with 10s, and it has a light and airy sound that I want to retain, rather than the heavier Leadbelly sound. So I guess that means I'll be leaving it in standard tuning for now, or maybe tuning down a half step at most - as Little Brother points out, the lighter gauge strings might get too floppy otherwise.

Very often guitar lore is filled with wisdom that used to be applicable until more modern construction techniques included the addition of things like truss rods. For example, many sites will tell you to remove and restring the guitar one string at a time to avoid changes in tension that might throw the neck out of kilter. The guitar expert I trust around here tells me that this once made sense but no longer makes sense because of the truss rod which stabilizes the neck much more reliably than was possible way back when. I suspect something similar is going on with 12 strings. (Which I don't own so I have no real idea what I'm talking about :roll: ).

At any rate, check this reference from the highly reliable site FRETS.com:

FRETS.com's advice on 12 string tuning. He suggest concert tuning for light gauge strings and tuning down a step for heavier gauges. You can trust this guy, I think.

Hope that helps.