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A question for the electronics guys

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(@wes-inman)
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Joined: 20 years ago
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I have been having a problem with my pedalboard I don't quite understand. It is really with just one pedal, my Marshall Guv'nor Plus II. I love the tone of this pedal, it can make my Fender amps sound just like a Marshall. That is not the problem at all.

I go from my guitar into a Boss TU2 tuner, then a Seymour Duncan Pickup Booster, then the Marshall Guv'nor, then a Behringer TO800 overdrive pedal. . I bought the Pickup Booster for one reason only, a clean volume boost for solos that does not change the sound of my overdrive or distortion pedals. And it works fine for my Behringer TO800, but not the Marshall Guv'nor.

I basically have two sounds I use. I will use the Behringer to get a thicker tone. It is still clean, but it thickens up the tone, takes that thin Fender clean sound out. And if I want a grittier, dirtier overdriven tone I will just turn up the gain on the Behringer. Then for a solo I will turn on the SD Pickup Booster. This works great, I get a good volume boost, and the Behringer saturates more with increased sustain. Great. :twisted:

But the SD Pickup Booster will not work like this with the Guv'nor. It will oversaturate more, and I get more sustain. Sounds great. But I get no volume boost whatsoever. What's the deal with that??

I have placed the SD Pickup Booster after my overdrive pedals, and I get a great volume boost, but it also cleans up the overdrives. So I go from a distorted or overdriven tone which I like to an almost perfect clean Fender-like ice-pick tone. Not a bad tone, but not what I want.

So why won't the Seymour Duncan boost the Guv'nors volume?? I love the Guvnor, but this kind of limits it's use. I can use the Behringer which is placed after the Guv'nor to get a volume and saturation boost. But this kind of makes the SD useless, plus I have to constantly adjust the volume on the Behringer, I like to keep it at one setting.

Sorry for the long description, but I just wanted the problem easy to understand.

If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis


   
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(@greybeard)
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Have you tried removing the Behringer from the chain? It sounds, at first reading, as if you're just pushing the signal further and further into clipping. The SD + Guv'nor + Behringer may just be too much boost.

It's like setting your guitar volume to 2 and turning the amp gain up so that you have overdrive. Turning up the guitar volume gives you no more volume, just more distortion. It sound as if that's what happening in your sound chain.

I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
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(@wes-inman)
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Greybeard,

No, I don't think that's the problem. The Guv'nor has a volume control, and I guess wherever you set it, that is the max volume you will get out of this pedal regardless of how strong a signal is going into it. I use the Guv'nor when I want that Classic Rock Marshall amp tone, and it is fantastic for this. So, I will set the Guv'nor's volume to use for rhythm guitar. Then I turn on the SD Pickup Booster for a volume boost. It does make the Guv'nor saturate more and increase sustain, you can hear the difference. But it will not get one bit louder.

On the other hand, if I am using the Behringer for a Blues like overdrive and turn on the SD, I get a great volume boost, plus the Behringer will saturate and sustain more. This is exactly what I wanted.

If I put the SD after the Guv'nor, I get the volume boost, but it cleans up the tone too much. No good.

I have been using the Behringer after the Guv'nor and this works, I get volume boost and more saturation. This is what I've had to do. Works fine, except I have to turn up the Behringer from it's set rhythm volume to a higher lead volume for that particular song. Then when it's over I have to reset it to it's original settings. Not that big of a problem, but still not how I wanted it to work.

So the Guv'nor seems to have some sort of built-in volume limiter that will not allow it to go any louder than the set volume no matter what kind of signal you send into it. Boy, I can't understand why they would do that.

Oh well, what you gonna do?

If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis


   
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(@greybeard)
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A/B switch? A:Guv'nor , B:Behringer

I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
Greybeard's Pages
My Articles & Reviews on GN


   
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(@gnease)
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(wrote this early today, but am posting it anyway. some of it is redundant WRT other posts.)

Wes- I think you must know this: Anytime you want to add gain ("turn up to 11") and simply bring up the volume level with the same tone, that gain stage (your SD pedal) has to be located after any and all non-linear (distortion, compression, saturating ...) stages/FX/amps, AND adding that gain cannot push any of the subsequent stages into any significant non-linear behavior. It simply can't work any other way -- unless you are using a footswitch-controlled attentuator on the output of your amp (someone must make one!). In the case of the Guv'nor, most -- if not all -- of the Marshall crunch (non-linearlity) is being created right in the pedal. From your description and my seeing/hearing a good friend use one with a large solid state amp, I'm guessing it does some combo of internal overdrive and compression to mimic output stage amp saturation. It's all in the pedal, and all of this processing is very non-linear. Depending upon the settings, I would expect that upping the signal into the pedal (via SD pedal or guitar volume control) would affect overdrive tone more so than overall volume. So to work as you intend, the SD pedal must come after, and everything after the SD pedal must be running relatively clean ... even with the SD pedal gain kicked-in. The fact that your Behringer pedal is "thickening" the tone, means it is doing something non-linear, even if only lightly. It might be boosting lows and mids a bit to some internal (to the pedal) overdrive/saturation block and then adding a bit of that back into the clean path -- probably an adjustment to determine how much. Also may be driving the amp input harder for additional effect -- maybe only the amp driving part with some EQ, as that's what OD is supposed to do. Few OD or distortion pedals do only OD or only distortion unless set up carefully in consideration of the amp settings. I'm also guessing the B-pedal probably has no compression. I suspect adding the SD ahead fo the Behringer pedal does indeed change the tone a bit when kicked-in, but there is a enough dynamic headroom in the pedal and the amp as you use it to permit at least some volume boost. The extra boost of the SD pedal might pushthe amp (thru B-pedal) into further OD, but if there is dymanic room for it, then you get more volume. Again, this is all dependent on how you've set up the gain distribution through your rig.

Recommendation: Work from the amp toward the guitar in adding the FX and getting them set up. First amp+SD+guitar and set both on/off working level. Add the Behringer, and adjust its settings and levels to give you best compromise in all four pedals' settings of off/off, off/on, on/off and on/on. When you get what you can be happy with there, add in the Guv'nor between guitar and amp and work on that. The key for the Guv'nor prob will be backing down the its output level to keep from killing every thing after it when in that full gain "on/on/on" setting. That method should leave you with switchable boost via the SD pedal. Unfortunately, it also may limit the achieve OD effect from the Behringer.

-=tension & release=-


   
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(@u2bono269)
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I have a thought, Wes...

You said your Guv'nor has a volume or level knob on it. That's the key right there. That pedal will never go above the level you set it on, regardless of how hot the signal going into the pedal is. all the booster is going to do is add color. Am I right on this, anyone?

http://www.brianbetteridge.com


   
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(@wes-inman)
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Topic starter  

Wow Greg, I am going to have to read that several times, a little over my head. :roll:

But I truly appreciate your advice, and when I figure out what you said, I'll try it.

And U2Bono, yes, that is exactly correct. Wherever I set the volume on the Guv'nor it never goes louder.

I will get back in a few days, my pedals are at practice, won't be able to mess with them till then.

Once again, Thank You!

If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis


   
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(@gnease)
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Just read the last part, Wes.

Start from amp and guitar and add one effect at a time from the amp toward guitar. I recommend SD first (closest to amp). Optimize. Then add Behringer between SD and guitar. Optimize Behringer -- hopefully without having to change what you did to SD. Finally, add Guv'nor between guitar and Behringer and optimize that. I'm assuming that's the best order based on your needs. And the best way to properly distribute the gains is to do it from final device (amp) toward input device (guitar). If you do it from the other direction (guitar to amp), the optimization becomes iterative.

-=tension & release=-


   
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(@97reb)
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Geez, I love all this talk of using multiple distortion/overdrive pedals. I just got the Line 6 Uber Metal Tonecore Pedal and am mixing it into my set-up (actually drastically changing my set-up). I "Wish You Well".

It is a small world for metal fanatics. I welcome you fellow musicians, especially the metalheads!


   
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(@gnease)
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Geez, I love all this talk of using multiple distortion/overdrive pedals. I just got the Line 6 Uber Metal Tonecore Pedal and am mixing it into my set-up (actually drastically changing my set-up). I "Wish You Well".

As mentioned elsewhere, I've made do with a Voodoo Lab Sparkle Drive. But that changed recently with the purchase of a T-Rex 'Moller' pedal. It does some nice and crunchy moderation distortion (internal saturation/distortion), plus OD of the amp ... and -- this is the big deal -- has an adjustable clean boost output section with a dedicated foot switch that is separate from the OD section switch. Except for the Guv'nor addition. This does exactly what Wes is after, assuming I set up the amp properly. OTOH, I understand why someone would get a Marshall Guv'nor, as it's really pretty impressive tonally. I just happen to get by with less.

Haven't tried the Tonecore Uber Metal, but do have a Line6 amp and distortion modeler pedal that I seldom use kicking around somewhere. I think it's the DM-4.

-=tension & release=-


   
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(@wes-inman)
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Topic starter  

Greg

Actually, I already have my pedalboard setup as you recommended. Guitar---Boss TU2 tuner---Danelectro Phase---SD pickup booster---Marshall Guv'nor---Behringer TO800----Danelectro EQ----Behringer Chorus----Danelectro Delay----BBE Sonic Stomp.

I can already use the Behringer to boost the Guv'nor and do. And, I can use the Guv'nor to boost the Behringer. So really, I am considering just taking the SD off the pedalboard, this would give me room for one more effect, I have a tremelo pedal I would like to put on the board. I am also contemplating (wow, big word) putting my old Rat pedal back on the board. This is more of a fuzz type distortion which I don't have now.

I have already tried running the Seymour Duncan after the overdrive pedals, but it cleans them up which I don't want. I wanted increased volume, plus increased saturation and sustain for solos. I don't know why the SD cleans up the tone, but it does.

I usually leave my pedalboard at practice all week, this week I will bring it home and do some experimenting.

Thanks for your help, I'll get back on this.

If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis


   
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(@gnease)
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Thinking about the name "Pick-up Booster", what that probably means, and how I'd design such an animal:

The answer probably lies in the input/output impedances of the SD, and how these interact with your pedals and amp. The input should -- as do most pedals -- approximate a high impedance amp input (at least 500k ohms). The output should mimic a pup's impedance (at least 5k ohms). When the OD is "cleaned up" by the SD pedal in position after the Behringer, is the cleaned up signal any louder, or is it quieter, even with "boost"? If quieter and cleaner, it could be your amp has a higher impedance that the SD pedal, and does not load the Behringer pedal as much as the SD does . That loading can result in reduced signal level being delivered to the SD (and subsequently the amp), and therefore, less amp OD (cleaner). Moreover, The SD boost is likely designed (esp WRT impedances) to be used directly after the pups (guitar output) and not really anywhere else. It "likes" to see a guitar pup on its input, not an FX pedal. Electrically, they do not look the same.

-=tension & release=-


   
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(@wes-inman)
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Topic starter  

Greg, here is info from the manufacturer


Seymour Duncan SFX-01 Pickup Booster Pedal

The first effects pedal designed specifically to work together with the pickups in your instrument to achieve optimum gain and resonance for all your tonal applications. Turn the knob to dial in pure, flat-EQ gain, ranging from 6dB, all the way to an astonishing 25dB! In addition, the Pickup Booster can add thickness to a single coil pickup. By engaging the Resonance Switch, the resonant peak of a single coil pickup can be lowered, making a Strat® pickup sound similar to a vintage humbucker or even a high-output humbucker.



Specs:

Gain range: 6 to 25 dB
Pickup Resonance Switch: Makes a single coil sound like a vintage humbucker ("1") or high output humbucker ("2").
"1" - Resonance shift down 2-3kHz
"0" - Resonance is not affected
"2" - Resonance shifts down 3-5kHz
Bypass: True bypass
Noise: -120 dBV (referred to input with gain set at 25dB)
Type of circuitry: Fully discrete, class A
Distortion: > 0.1%
Power: DC 9-12 V battery, or regulated DC adapter
Current consumption: 3.5mA @ 9V (when LED is "on"), 1.5mA @ 9V (when LED is "off")
Input impedance: 500K (when effect is "on"), Open (when effect is "off")
Output impedance: 5K ohms
Dimensions: 2.5" x 5" x 2" (W x L x H) (6.35cm x 12.7cm x 5.08 cm)
Weight: 0.8 lb. Without battery, 0.9 lb. With battery
Chassis material: Heavy duty 1.6 mm steel

And here's what it looks like:

Placed before Behringer- big volume boost, increased saturation and sustain
Placed after Behringer- big volume boost, but cleans up overdriven tone

Placed before Guv'nor - no volume boost, but increased saturation and sustain
Placed after Guv'nor- big volume boost, cleans up overdriven tone

If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis


   
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(@gnease)
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Joined: 20 years ago
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All interesting, Wes. Certainly the impedances play a role, but the whole "volume boost, cleans up OD" is probably not easily understood without reviewing the actual ciruitry of all involved devices. The only additional speculation I'll make is that the Pup Booster itself does not OD (or cause the output of the Behringer to clip when loaded in the the SD) in the same manner as does an amp. The SD is changing the loading relationship between the Behringer and the amp -- clearly not something you want.

-=tension & release=-


   
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(@wes-inman)
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Topic starter  

Thanks Greg, I will probably take the SD off the pedalboard. I am torn between adding my ProRat which has a great distortion, more fuzz than the Guv'nor. But I have a good tremelo pedal as well, we are doing Riders On the Storm and that effect is used.

The Pickup Booster is not a bad pedal, I like it. But I think it is better for those who like very clean tones. I read all the reviews and others said it did not boost distortion or overdrives well, but excels at boosting clean tones. I'll put it in the "big box" with all my old pedals, I'll use it again someday. :D

If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis


   
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