Skip to content
13b5b9 -- wait, is ...
 
Notifications
Clear all

13b5b9 -- wait, is this right?

10 Posts
6 Users
0 Likes
4,281 Views
(@number6)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 152
Topic starter  

I picked up a jazz-guitar method the other day to improve my chord vocabulary, but it's giving me a bit of trouble. It's listing a chord as a D13b5b9, but the notes played in this voicing are only the b5, b9, b7, 3 and 13th. (Ab, C, Gb, Eb, B,) Shouldn't the b7 be listed in the chord name, or is a b7 implied in a 13th chord? Secondly, the root's missing. I know that in Jazz it's common to have the root omitted on guitar but played on the bass, but playing this chord over a D note sounds awful. Is it possible to have a D13b5b9 without a root, or would that be another chord?

If it helps, it's played with the Ab on the E string, Eb on the A string, C on the G string, Gb on the B string and B on the e string.

Thanks

The hunger site. Click once a day to give free food.


   
Quote
(@davidhodge)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4472
 

On any extension higher than 7 (meaning 9, 11 and 13), the 7th is implied. That is, of course, the dominant (flatted) seventh. Otherwise the chord would be listed as "major9," "major11" and "major13." If the writer intended to totally omit the seventh, then it would be "add," such as "add9."

Usually how a chord is named is all about the context of the chord progression. It's certainly possible that this chord could go by another (or several other) names, but without knowing the context it's hard to say which would make most sense. For instance, if the following chord has a root of G, then calling this D13 (etc.,) would make sense in terms of the progression.

Hope this helps.

Peace


   
ReplyQuote
(@vic-lewis-vl)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 10264
 

Looking at the notes used, and taking B as the root, you'd have:

B, root;
Eb, 3rd;
Gb, 5th;
Ab, flattened 7th;
C, flattened 9th.

so you could call it a B7(b9).....but like the man said, it'd all depend on context and key.

:D :D :D

Vic

"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)


   
ReplyQuote
(@fretsource)
Prominent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 973
 

Looking at the notes used, and taking B as the root, you'd have:

B, root;
Eb, 3rd;
Gb, 5th;
Ab, flattened 7th;
C, flattened 9th.

so you could call it a B7(b9).....but like the man said, it'd all depend on context and key.

:D :D :D

Vic
That'd be B6/b9 Vic and spelled B, D#, F#, G# C (1 3 5 6 b9)


   
ReplyQuote
(@vic-lewis-vl)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 10264
 

:oops: :oops: :oops:

My mistake, sorry - miscounted!

:D :D :D

Vic

"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)


   
ReplyQuote
(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

I picked up a jazz-guitar method the other day to improve my chord vocabulary, but it's giving me a bit of trouble. It's listing a chord as a D13b5b9. . .

Ok, I got to ask - what method book gives you that chord without the context and background to understand what you're doing with it?

My curiosity is killing me :)

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
ReplyQuote
(@douglasmcmillan)
New Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4
 

By any chance was this Mickey Baker's Jazz Guitar? I found that book confusing.

It might be more helpful when voicing (might just be more confusing) to think of that chord as a tritone substitution, especially if it's in a minor ii-V-i progression. If you form a dominant 7th a b5 away from D you get Ab7, which is Ab C Eb Gb. The B (13) can now be seen as a #9 extension relative to the Ab, and the D as a b5.

It does sound awful over a D root, but that is how it's supposed to sound. Lots of dissonance which then resolves at the tonic, hopefully. Basically, it's an altered chord.


   
ReplyQuote
(@number6)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 152
Topic starter  

I should've responded a lot sooner to this.
By any chance was this Mickey Baker's Jazz Guitar? I found that book confusing.
As a matter of fact, it is! I figured that since it'd been in print since 1955 it must have some redeeming qualities. "Mickey Baker's complete course in jazz guitar, book 1"
It might be more helpful when voicing (might just be more confusing) to think of that chord as a tritone substitution, especially if it's in a minor ii-V-i progression. If you form a dominant 7th a b5 away from D you get Ab7, which is Ab C Eb Gb. The B (13) can now be seen as a #9 extension relative to the Ab, and the D as a b5.

So I can also consider it an Ab7#9 chord without the D? That'll make it easier to remember.

Kingpatzer: Sorry, I didn't see your response until now for some reason.Yeah, it's a little (a lot) light on theory. I think he's assuming the reader will already have a strong background in that. When he asks you to transpose exercises, he doesn't even tell you what key it's in to start with. At the very least though, I'm learning some new chords.

Dhodge: So it would make sense to call this chord a 13b5b9 if the following chord is a fourth above it? Can you give me a little more detail please?

Thanks for the help so far guys.

The hunger site. Click once a day to give free food.


   
ReplyQuote
(@douglasmcmillan)
New Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4
 

So I can also consider it an Ab7#9 chord without the D? That'll make it easier to remember.

If it makes it easier for you to remember :D, the 'Hendrix' chord. The b5 (D) can be used still, but the chord would need to be voiced again. In context it will be easier to remember as an Ab7#9, especially relative to the tonic. Another thing about using it in a minor ii-V-i would mean that there's good voice leading, especially if the Ab is in the bass. D is the 5th of G so a minor ii-V-i in the key of Gm would be Am7b5-D7-Gm. With the tritone substitution it's Am7b5-Ab7#9-Gm, so a bassline that descends in half steps, which sounds good, though maybe less so with a bass player.

I think it's probably still a relevant book to classic big band swing, but I'm not sure how good it was for me as a method. There's a book 2? :o


   
ReplyQuote
(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

If you want a GREAT series for learning the theory, pick up either The Jazz Theory Book or Jazzology.

For method books, seriously consider either The Complete Jazz Method books which are really very well done (though I personally disagree with the focus on shapes). For jazz chord use, voicing and use there is no better resource than The Complete Johnny Smith Approach to Guitar.

Once you've gone through any of the theory books and a method books that relates that theory to the guitar, consider picking up the Joe Pass books. Joe wasn't much of a writer, but his musical ideas are fantastic.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
ReplyQuote