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(@vic-lewis-vl)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 10264
 

Drat - now I'm a lemming! Just don't squeeze me into a gin-and-tonic.....

Tom, fair point, when you say you want to communicate with other musicians - what exactly would other musicians (a pianist for example) call a Dsus2 chord?

The only point I was trying to make was, though it's probably technically incorrect, a Dsus2 chord is recognised as such by the average guitarist, and there surely comes a time when, by dint of common usage, the term "sus2" will be recognised as a valid concept....a "guitarist's chord" if you like, in the same way as some chords are labelled "jazz chords" or "powerchords".....

I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest - if I ask what seems to be a stupid question, it's only because I don't know the answer....and the whole point of asking questions is to acquire knowledge....isn't it?

Anyway I fancy a swim - now where's the nearest cliff........

:D :D :D

Vic

"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)


   
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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Vic, it depends on how important the tones are, and what they're working from.

Pianists view things much more in the spirit of harmony than guitarists do. Guitarists think in terms of fingering=chord, because we're taught only a single way to do a beginner chord - G7 is 320001. If we move our fingers, we expect a different name... and if we don't get one, we resort to all sorts of slash chords or other weird names to tell ourselves the fingers need to move.

Since most guitarists don't read, realizing the chord is really the set of tones G-B-D-F is a step that a lot of guitarists never take. Even fewer take the next step, and realize the important tones are B and F (the tritone which resolves outward to E and C in the C chord that usually follows) - the G and D notes are optional!

Compare that to what a pianist first learns. In the beginning, they don't even learn chord names - they just play the written notes. And since a seventh chord has four notes, a beginning pianist won't play all four - they'll play three. The usual first voicing for a G7 is B-F-G (left hand fingering 521). When they move from G7 to C, it's really clear that only two notes are moving - so even before they get around to giving it a name, they're thinking in terms of moving single voices.

Later on, the pianist may start to play from fake books. By that time, they'll have the theory down - they'll be able to tell you the spelling of each major scale, and every common chord. By the time they're ready to look at 'G7' and translate that into a chord, they're in a position to make choices - something a guitarist usually won't do until they start learning chord melody style.

So if a pianist sees the set of notes D-E-A, they play the notes D-E-A, and don't bother to name them. Pianists don't get hung up on fingering=chord name, because they're moving their fingers all the time.

If they're playing from a chart that says D-Dsus2-D, they'll figure out the F# moves to E and back - they'll just question the wisdom of the author.

If they have to name D-E-A in isolation, they'll probably call it Asus - because pianists as a rule are very familiar with chord inversions, and they don't insist on the bass being the root. (Since guitarists are taught open position chords first, where the bass does equal the root, many think this is some sort of 'rule' in music)

And if a pianist has to chart out a set of changes that includes the tones D-E-A as what a guitarist would consider a 'chord', they'll make a decision based on the harmonic structure of the piece as a whole - if it moves from there to an A root, and the surrounding chords have lots of extensions, they may end up calling it E11 (you've got the root, b7, and 11; the third may be implied by the structure of other chords, and the 5th and 9th aren't essential)

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@misanthrope)
Noble Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 2261
 

Thanks guys, that all seems perfectly reasonable when you spell it out like that :)

ChordsAndScales.co.uk - Guitar Chord/Scale Finder/Viewer


   
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(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

Compare that to what a pianist first learns. . . .

What Noteboat describes here, btw, is largely the way the Berkeley Guitar Method books proceed as well.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

That's true to a point of Berklee - it introduces chords on p.11 with notes, and has two different voicings of C major in the first exercise. On the first real chord diagrams (p.24) it shows a couple of optional fingerings... but for the most part, chords are shown as notes without names, like the typical pianist learns.

What I said about pianists is also true only to a point... methods like Alfred, John Thompson, or Oxford start chords as unnamed notes. But some methods, like the Bastien book for adult beginners, teach chord shapes - I guess their thinking is that the adult beginner wants to play popular songs rather than the classics, so you get a left-hand chord right-hand melody approach.

But the vast majority (95% or more) of guitiarsts learn chords by fingerings, and the vast majority of pianists learn chords by notes.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

That's true to a point of Berklee . . .

What I said about pianists is also true only to a point...

But the vast majority (95% or more) of guitiarsts learn chords by fingerings, and the vast majority of pianists learn chords by notes.

I wasn't trying to suggest you're wrong, Note. After all, most guitarists don't learn to read notes, and of those that do, most don't go through the Berkeley Method Books (or similar higher end method books).

Rather, I was pointing out that it's not necessary that it be that way. And that some of the more rigorous method systems out there approach it more like a tradiitonal piano teacher would.

I have a student now who played piano for 8 years. He's a great kid, works hard, and best of all, really gets theory. We started with the Berkeley books and after his first lesson, which introduced the C-major scale, we hit the excercise 2 and 3. He had figured out all by himself other voicings for C, F and G7 and was experimenting with them.

After he figured out playing E with his second finger, 4th string and muting the 3rd string, C on the second string and grabbing the G on the first string with his pinky, I realized he's going to be one heck of a musician if he keeps working at it . . .and I'm going to be one tired teacher trying to keep up with him :)

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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