Get my head around modes

I didn't make this, I glommed it off the 'net from jacmuse, I believe. It looks better in Excel. Forgive the alignment, but it should get the point across.

Each mode is displaced by one increasing scale degree. That is, Dorian starts on the second degree of a major scale; Phrygian starts on the third degree, and so on. Ionian is our beloved major scale... W W H W W W H.

Consider C Phrygian.
H W W W H W H
C Phrygian C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C

It starts on the third degree of Ab Ionian
W W H W W W H
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab

W W H W W W H
C Ionian C D E F G A B C
G Ionian G A B C D E F# G
D Ionian D E F# G A B C# D
A Ionian A B C# D E F# G# A
E Ionian E F# G# A B C# D# E
B Ionian B C# D# E F# G# A# B
Gb Ionian Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb
Db Ionian Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db
Ab Ionian Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab
Eb Ionian Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb
Bb Ionian Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
F Ionian F G A Bb C D E F

H W H H W W W
C Locrian C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
F Locrian F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F
A# Locrian A# B C# D# E F# G# A#
D# Locrian D# E F# G# A B C# D#
G# Locrian G# A B C# D E F# G#
C# Locrian C# D E F# G A B C#
F# Locrian F# G A B C D E F#
B Locrian B C D E F# G A B
E Locrian E F G A Bb C D E
A Locrian A Bb C D Eb F G A
D Locrian D Eb F G Ab Bb C D
G Locrian G Ab Bb C Db Eb F G

Sorry if this is a migraine-inducer, but I found it immensely helpful.

I think it's exactly what I've been yakkin' about.

The way I am taught, I can see it, work it out if I get in trouble.

Doesn't matter to me, I'm still going to learn VIA instructor, but the poor buggar that started the thread....good luck.

I need to see this stuff in charts because I really don't use it. It's just ready-reference for me.

Unless I am totally ignorant, the only purpose I see to modes is in improvising and in composing. I'm not going to take something that's already written and play it in a different mode. Transposing to a different key is one thing and pretty common, but to another mode? If something is written in G (Ionian)... e.g. Heart of Gold, and for some reason I want to play it in Phrygian, I think it's going to sound kinda weird.

M m m M M m dim
G Ionian.. G A B C D E F#
G Phrygian G Ab Bb C D Eb F


The song as written uses Em D C G. In Phrygian the Ebm would make it sound off.

G Phrygian wouldn't be like that, the way you harmonized it you were thinking Major scale, G Phrygian would be the same as Ebmaj7 ( or C minor ).

So you would simply change the tonality... I think? ( as in transpose it to Ebmaj7 )

G phrygian's chords would be these:

Gmin7 Abmaj7 Bb7 Cmin7 Dmin7b5 Ebmaj7 Fmin7 Gmin7

In some music like some hispanic music you would turn the Gmin7 into a G7.

G Phrygian wouldn't be like that, the way you harmonized it you were thinking Major scale, G Phrygian would be the same as Ebmaj7 ( or C minor ).

So you would simply change the tonality... I think? ( as in transpose it to Ebmaj7 )

G phrygian's chords would be these:

Gmin7 Abmaj7 Bb7 Cmin7 Dmin7b5 Ebmaj7 Fmin7 Gmin7

In some music like some hispanic music you would turn the Gmin7 into a G7.

Yes, I neglected to shift over the quality of the chords. My bad. However, I think taking a song written in Ionian and transposing it to Phrygian would make it sound a little weird. Maybe I'll try it. :wink: I think people get too caught up in, and overthink modes, imo.

Yeah I agree, people tend to over think modes, and yes changing a song from Ionian to Phrygian would be weird, I'mnot sure how you would do that but, yeah.

Just wanted to correct the harmonization, just kind of a music nerd xD.

Good day everyone.
I just wondered if anyone could offer a couple of quick answers to a few questions i had regarding modes.

I have seen on looking through the forum that i am far from the first person to be slightly puzzled by certain aspects of modes, however i have not managed to find specific answers for a couple of the points i'm looking for, so i hope you do not mind another person who is slightly puzzled by some of the finer points. If anyone would be kind enough to offer some thoughts, i'd be mighty grateful.

My first question will seem obvious, but i have seen a lot of conflicting information here, both from pictures and videos on the internet and various 'lessons' of dubious quality.
My question is, What is the starting note of a given mode? Is it always the note of the named scale/ 'home' chord, or is it the note that the scale is 'built' on? And is this rule the same for all 'modes'.
For example if i wished to play the C Lydian, if i were to want to play the scale, in order, whilst my band played a C major chord, would i play, C,D,E,Fsharp,G,A,B,C OR would i play, G,A,B,C,D,E,Fsharp,G? I know this probably sounds simple, but it's making my head explode a bit.
Also:
If i were to play an C Aeolian, if i were to play it in order, would it therefore follow that i simply played, C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C (thus actually playing C major) or would i play, A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A? Again, this is wrapping my head in knots completely!

Could it be that C lydian starts on C, whereas C aeolian starts on A? Or do all modes start on the parent note. i.e C Aeolian, C lydian, C Dorian, C phrygian, C mixolydian etc. etc.

Thanks for any help anyone can offer

Maybe this can answer some of your quesionts:

https://www.guitarnoise.com/lesson/a-la-modal/

Hope this helps and, if not, rest assured folks will be giving you answers here before you know it!

Peace

Thanks hodge,
That's already proved useful.

I can see that actually, what i'd learnt (don't learn from youtube ladies and gents) was at fault.

A mode on C, would indeed start on C always.
However, it turns out, it was misunderstanding of aeolian that caused me confusion here. What i've said above is actually wrong, and the C aeolian would be C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb,C

I'll take a stab at clearing up some of your confusion...

Modes are just scales. Scales, like chords, have names that are in two parts - one part tells you what it's going to sound like, and the other part tells you what note is the "root", or home base, for it. For example, "Em" tells you it's a minor sound, and E is the root.

The same is true of scales and modes. "C major" tells you it's a major scale with C as the root; "F Lydian" tells you it's a Lydian scale (or mode) with F as the root.

There are a couple areas where you're getting confused - the first is the difference between "parallel" scales and "related" scales. Related scales have the same NOTES; parallel scales have the same ROOTS.

In your first example of C Lydian, C Lydian and G major are related scales. They've got the same notes. But the major scale has the pattern WWHWWWH, while the Lydian scale has the pattern WWWHWWH. That gives them different sounds.

It gets a little more confusing when modes are explained in relative terms. For example, G Mixolydian is often said to be "the C major scale starting from G". And this is true - IF (and only if) you are playing the mode as a scale. But your interest probably isn't being able to play a bunch of scales - you want to be able to use them, to write your own melodies, or to improvise lead lines using them. And in that respect, the "starting from" explanation is close to useless.

For example, if you play "Happy Birthday" in the key of C, you'll find you're starting with a G note. But Happy Birthday isn't in G Mixolydian - it's in C major! Melodies can start anywhere. What makes a melody in one scale or another is the tonic, or the tonal center of the melody - the note that feels like home base. In Happy Birthday, that note is C - when the melody ends on C, it feels like you're done. That's the tonal center. It is often (but not always) the last note in a melody.

Once you've figured out what the tonal center is, you've got half of the scale or mode name. If it feels like C is home base, you're in some kind of C scale. Then it's the relationship of the OTHER notes to C that makes up the scale type - C Lydian will have C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C. G major will have the same notes. But only C Lydian will have those notes AND have C as the tonal center.

When you're looking at it as a scale, the tonal center is always your starting point. So C Aeolian, C Lydian, etc. all "start" from C. When you improvise, you might start anywhere... but you're establishing C as home base.

C Aeolian isn't CDEFGABC - that's C major, because C is the home base and the pattern from that point is WWHWWWH (which is what makes it major, or Ionian). ABCDEFGA is Aeolian, because the pattern is Aeolian (WHWWHWW)... but it's A Aeolian, because the starting point is A. If you want C Aeolian, you need to have the Aeolian pattern, WHWWHWW, starting from C: C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C.

Noteboat, you're a gentelmen. This is a superb, detailed explanation that has completely cleared up the muddle i'd gotten myself in, i'm very grateful.
You're right i got my understanding of aeolian wrong, and that's what's thrown me.

I do have a further question on this if you or anyone else have another moment. Again, i'm sure it seems obvious, but to me it's a little confusing. I feel that once i know this, i'll be significantly more informed on it.

What i'd like to know now really is: while i understand how to create the various modes now, i'm a little confused on their relationship to the major scale and their application. Sticking to our C lydian and C Aeolian examples, i'm still a little confused why C lydian works with the C major chord, but C Aeolian doesn't for example. At the moment, they're sort of existing in space for me rather than in relation to actually making music?

Thanks again for any help, it's amazing that people here know so much and are so consistently generous with their thoughts and responses.

The relationship to the major scale is simply that all the 'related' modes have the same notes. That's it. It can help in learning what the modes are, but it's not particularly useful for using them - because when you're playing in a mode, you don't want to be playing in a major scale - and you DO want to be focused on the right tonal center, and thinking in a 'related' scale can muddy that up.

If the band is playing a C chord, they're playing the notes C-E-G. If you're in C Lydian, you've got all the same chord tones: C-D-E-F#-G-A-B. If you're playing in C Aeolian, you're missing one: C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb.

If you play the Eb note in the Aeolian while the band is playing C major, you're creating quite a dissonance against the chord.

If you play the Eb note in the Aeolian while the band is playing C major, you're creating quite a dissonance against the chord.

Which doesn't necessarily make it wrong!!! One of my favorite Joe Pass inspired little riffs makes heavy use of both the 3rd and b3 on off-beats. By using it in a way that doesn't make it sound like a prominent tone but more like an acciaccatura the dissonance works to enhance the riff, not detract from it.

If the band is playing a C chord, they're playing the notes C-E-G. If you're in C Lydian, you've got all the same chord tones: C-D-E-F#-G-A-B. If you're playing in C Aeolian, you're missing one: C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb.

If you play the Eb note in the Aeolian while the band is playing C major, you're creating quite a dissonance against the chord.

Which, whether by coincidence or design of the Muses, gives you Cm because Aeolian is the minor mode.

Which, whether by coincidence or design of the Muses, gives you Cm because Aeolian is the minor mode.

Plenty of scales are minor, and will give you a Cm if you stack in thirds.
Dorian is one example example.

It is more correct to say that Aeolian and the natural minor are the same scale. There is no one minor scale.