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Iolan, mixo lydian and that kind of stuff

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Arjen v Assen
(@arjen-v-assen)
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I rid something about starting your scale in an other note but I didn't really get it. Can someone explain?


   
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Alan Green
(@alangreen)
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You're talking about Modes, which are simply the scale starting and ending on different notes

In C Major

Ionian is the mode from C to C - i.e. CDEFGABC
Dorian is the mode from D to D - i.e. DEFGABCD
Phrygian is the mode from E to E
Lydian is the mode rom F to F
Mixolydian is the mode from G to G
Aeolian is the mode from A to A (also the A natural minor scale)
Locrian is the mode from B to B

Modes are hideously misunderstood. Avoid them for the moment; at least until you understand basic major and minor scale structure.

Best,

A :-)

"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk


   
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321Barf
(@321barf)
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In a playing situation you don't just start and stop on the root note.There's far more to it than that.Any chords you are playing need to come to rest on the mode's I chord(or i chord),and in the case of the modes OTHER than the Major and minor scale,you want to be careful about not using too many chords in those modes because if you use too many then it may end up sounding like you are playing in the related major or minor key and resolving to either of their roots instead of the root of the mode you wanted.

The Major and minor scale are the basis for the major and minor keys and as such you'll generally get alot more chords being used and with alot more chord movement going on.

But for the rest of the modes you are looking at alot less chords being used,possibly just one or two or maybe three,and things tend to stay hovering on (mostly), and maybe "around" the I or i chord of that mode and the chords won't really stray from that.Atleast not like you see in major and minor keys where the chords stray quite a bit from the tonic chord and yet are still able to resolve back to it and have it feel like home.But for the other modes you don't really ever want to stray from home.You just sort of stay there and hover there and explore just that one harmony.Whereas in keys you have more dynamic chord activity and move from one harmony to another,to another,to another,etc until finally arriving back at your "home" or "Tonic" chord.

The root or tonic note of any scale or mode isn't really simply the "starting note" so much as it's a "home note" that you return to often and eventually end up on,ending on it as your final destination.This is also true,chordally speaking, of the chords in a (major or minor) Key - However,in modes other than the major and minor scale chordal movement is much less and tends to hover on/around the mode's "one" chord.Chordal movement (in modes) is minimal and usually you'll see brief linear types of movement of chords that return frequently to the "one" chord of the mode, or maybe just two chords (one of them being the "one" chord of the mode) that alternate back and forth but with emphasis leaning more towards the mode's "one" chord.

There is much more to say on this topic but time and space permit it.It's a rather large topic.This is just the tip of the iceberg.


   
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321Barf
(@321barf)
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The modes can all be derived from the same Major Scale as Alan Green said but they should be equated with or compared to the Major or minor scale that shares the same root note:

C Ionian (this is the C Major Scale)
C D E F G A B C

D Dorian
D E F G A B C D -> compare with D minor:D E F G A Bb C D

E Phrygian
E F G A B C D E -> compare with E minor:E F# G A B C D E

F Lydian
F G A B C D E F -> compare with F Major:F G A Bb C D E F

G Mixolydian
G A B C D E F G -> compare with G Major:G A B C D E F# G

A Aeolian (Natural Minor)
A B C D E F G A

B Locrian
B C D E F G A B -> compare with B minor:B C# D E F# G A B

-

It's probably best that you look at all the modes in parallel:

C Ionian
C D E F G A B C

C Dorian
C D Eb F G A Bb C

C Phrygian
C Db E F G Ab Bb C

C Lydian
C D E F# G A B C

C Mixolydian
C D E F G A Bb C

C Aeolian
C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

C Locrian
C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

Looking at modes in parallel like this it becomes much clearer that they are their own scales each with their very own sound, and you can see how they are different from eachother.And it's much easier to recognize each of their different flavors when comparing them this way.


   
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Alan Green
(@alangreen)
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Heavyweight stuff.

The obvious thing to add to what derp has said is that if (for example) you're using C mixolydian, then you're not playing in the key of C, but in F

Best,

A :-)

"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk


   
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Mike
 Mike
(@mike)
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The obvious thing to add to what derp has said is that if (for example) you're using C mixolydian, then you're not playing in the key of C, but in F

So that means you start on the fourth?

So if your in the key of F (mixolydian) you start on C?

Thanks,

Mike


   
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Alan Green
(@alangreen)
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Yep - the key of F Major has the notes

F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C etc..

and C mixolydian has the notes

C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C - as in derp's post

Best,

A :-)

"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk


   
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Anonymous
(@anonymous)
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Joined: 15 years ago
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any well known modal songs out there?


   
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Anonymous
(@anonymous)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 8184
 

Can we say derp as another noteboat :wink:


   
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321Barf
(@321barf)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 133
 

Can we say derp as another noteboat :wink:

Definately not. :oops:

I have no credentials or schooling at all.I just pick up stuff off the internet and try my darndest to make sense of it all.It doesn't always work out so well for me,lol. :lol:

plus noteboat also (besides having an education) writes books and stuff...i don't think i'll ever have that good a grasp of this stuff :|

the day i write my own book i'll be totally shocked :shock:


   
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undercat
(@undercat)
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Posts: 959
 

I'm not entirely sure if it's been said, but even if it has, it bears repeating:

It's often best to think of modes as scale alterations, rather than "starting a scale on a different note".

The different note thing can help you find where they are, but most of the time, you'll end up misplacing the tonal center and playing in the wrong key altogether.

I was working on memorizing them at one point, but I find my solos benefit more from listening to their effect over a progression, and then learning the melodic effect of the "odd notes", rather than think so strictly within the scale.

For example, maybe I'm just bangin' around with the pentatonic scale (as I often do) but then I want to feel a little Lydian, I'll just bounce on the #4 a few times. It's not perfect, but it acheives the weirdness I'm looking for. YMMV.

Do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life...


   
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Alan Green
(@alangreen)
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Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 5342
 

any well known modal songs out there?

Anything with the words Gregorian Chant on the CD cover

Black Mountain Side - from Led Zep 1 (according to the score I have)

Best,

A :-)

"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk


   
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aroundtheclaxon
(@aroundtheclaxon)
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so modes are kinda like different patterns for scales like wwhwwwh is a major and some other pattern would be a different mode? Thats how i understood it im probably wrong.

Head Arcitech at Vandelay Instudries


   
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paul donnelly
(@paul-donnelly)
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Posts: 1066
 

so modes are kinda like different patterns for scales like wwhwwwh is a major and some other pattern would be a different mode? Thats how i understood it im probably wrong.
That's right.


   
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martin-6
(@martin-6)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 418
 

according to http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse there are certain "exotic scales" which appear to match up with certain modes.

e.g.
"Neapolitan Minor" (h-w-w-w-h-w-w) = Phrygian
"Ethiopean" (w-h-w-w-h-w-w) = Aeolian

I don't know how much I trust the exotic names given on that site but it's nice to know that if I ever get round to learning my modes I won't need to worry about soloing over Ethiopean chord progressions any more!

I also find it very useful to think of the modes as exotic scales - so if all the modal theory gets a bit much for the old brain, you can always just treat each one as a separate entity, and learn them one by one as if you were learning the Hungarian Gypsy scale (that one has always eluded me) or the Balinese Rain Dance scale. The advantage of the exotic names is that they give you some kind of clue as to what kind of sounds you might obtain, whereas this Lydian, Phrygian stuff is all Greek to me. If I was going to learn a new scale tomorrow I would find Arabian a lot more tempting than Auxiliary Diminished (although they are apparently the same thing).

Then again the "scale alterations" approach seems to offer a surprisingly easy route into learning some of these modes.


   
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