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javanese scale?

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(@jeansen)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 95
Topic starter  

do you have formula for javanese scales? i've search some lessons and i found that some of the scales...have 1/4 interval..so it won't be usable for guitar playing? is it true?thx u :)


   
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(@misanthrope)
Noble Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 2261
 

I've got one in my database that's called 'javaneese scale' - but nothing more specific. That one is 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7

ChordsAndScales.co.uk - Guitar Chord/Scale Finder/Viewer


   
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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

You won't find much, because they only have two scales. Or maybe you'll find two much....

There are two basic scales, the 'slendro' and the 'pelog'. You'll find sources that say the slendro has five notes and the pelog six - but more on that in a moment.

Here's where the real trouble starts: 'Javanese' can refer to the island of Java, or to the whole of Indonesia... about 18,000 islands, each of which has its own culture and music. There are plenty of similarities - they each use two basic scales, and the Gamelan as a principal 'instrument' (it's sort of a multi-musician percussion orchestra in one frame). But each location builds its Gamelan slightly differently, and since the Gamelan is a tuned percussion instrument (which isn't very easy to re-tune once it's built), a village's Gamelan will determine the exact distance between the tones they use; no two Gamelans are tuned alike.

So no matter where you go in that area - Java, Bali, Sumatra, etc. - you'll find only two scales... but you need only go as far as the next Gamelan to find differences between the scales.

The scales will roughly correspond to 1-2-4-5-6 for the slendro or 1-b2-b3-#4-5-6-b7 for the pelog.

Here's where more cultural confusion comes in - Indonesian music is pentatonic. That pelog scale has two extra notes. Where you're located (and the song you're playing) determine which notes you drop. So a common scale in Bali is 1-b2-b3-5-6, but a particular tune might drop 5 in favor of #4. These 'sub-scales' are called 'petet' in Indonesia.

Factor in the tuning variations, and a complete catalog will run into tens of thousands of scales, but in any given location they'll only use two basic scales, and all locations call their scales by the same two names.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@lee-n)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 142
 

You won't find much, because they only have two scales. Or maybe you'll find two much....

There are two basic scales, the 'slendro' and the 'pelog'. You'll find sources that say the slendro has five notes and the pelog six - but more on that in a moment.

Here's where the real trouble starts: 'Javanese' can refer to the island of Java, or to the whole of Indonesia... about 18,000 islands, each of which has its own culture and music. There are plenty of similarities - they each use two basic scales, and the Gamelan as a principal 'instrument' (it's sort of a multi-musician percussion orchestra in one frame). But each location builds its Gamelan slightly differently, and since the Gamelan is a tuned percussion instrument (which isn't very easy to re-tune once it's built), a village's Gamelan will determine the exact distance between the tones they use; no two Gamelans are tuned alike.

So no matter where you go in that area - Java, Bali, Sumatra, etc. - you'll find only two scales... but you need only go as far as the next Gamelan to find differences between the scales.

The scales will roughly correspond to 1-2-4-5-6 for the slendro or 1-b2-b3-#4-5-6-b7 for the pelog.

Here's where more cultural confusion comes in - Indonesian music is pentatonic. That pelog scale has two extra notes. Where you're located (and the song you're playing) determine which notes you drop. So a common scale in Bali is 1-b2-b3-5-6, but a particular tune might drop 5 in favor of #4. These 'sub-scales' are called 'petet' in Indonesia.

Factor in the tuning variations, and a complete catalog will run into tens of thousands of scales, but in any given location they'll only use two basic scales, and all locations call their scales by the same two names.

Noteboat just curious, is all this knowledge in your head the whole time or is it stuff that you know a bit about but need to look it up for reminders before answering a topic?. Is there anything we can stump you on :D

You really are 'da man'! :)


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

I've been interested in music from other cultures for a long time, so slendro and pelog were in my head (and you'll find the Balinese scale I mentioned on p.71 of my book). And Gamelan music is cool stuff... I've read a lot about it and gone to a few concerts - the University of Chicago has a Gamelan society; I don't need to travel far to hear one. So this was an easy one.

But I do learn a lot from some of the questions I answer. I've got a pretty decent library I've built up over the years, and if I'm not too sure I'm recalling something right I'll look it up. Out on my desk at the moment are three piano scores I referred to in the discussion with Fretsource on arpeggios (Mozart's sonatas, Bach's Invetions, and Bach's WTC1). I've also got out my Harvard dictionary (used for the same thread) and an arranging handbook - there was a species counterpoint question this morning on another board, and I remembered it had a nice clear explanation.

By my count I've invested about 17 years in formal music study with private teachers and in college. And I'm naturally really curious, so pretty much every week I'll read 2 or 3 papers on the web to figure out things I wonder about - lately I've been reading a lot of acoustic research stuff - because there's a difference between 'knowing' something (like I 'knew' modes in college - enough to spell them right and pass the tests) and understanding something... and I really enjoy understanding how things work.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@demoetc)
Noble Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 2167
 

They have some interesting articles and PodCasts here:

http://www.gamelan.org/

The University of Hawaii's Gamelan was one of the reasons I went to college in the first place. I sat in the back of an auditorium during one of their rehearsals and got hooked. :)


   
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(@misanthrope)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 2261
 

That's the trouble with the world wide web of deceit when creating a database... Any ideas how the not-so-javaneese-after-all scale I posted came to be labelled as javaneese? (ie, is it just plain wrong or is there more too it?) It's not quite the same as the pelog.

I guess I'll be adding a lot of notes to these scales :)

ChordsAndScales.co.uk - Guitar Chord/Scale Finder/Viewer


   
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(@lee-n)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 142
 

Tom, your bookshelf must be as big as my house :)

I must admit I've never heard of the Gamelan, so now I'm curious, cheers demo I'll check out that link. 8)


   
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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Yeah, yours is a 'Javanese' scale - compare yours to the pelog I showed, and you have 4 where I have #4. Neither one is exact; they don't conform to equal temperament. So mine's a little sharp, yours is a little flat.... the problem isn't the scale itself, but trying to cram non-Western music into a chromatic framework.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@misanthrope)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 2261
 

Cheers Tom, fount of knowledge as always :)

ChordsAndScales.co.uk - Guitar Chord/Scale Finder/Viewer


   
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(@jeansen)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 95
Topic starter  

hello..wow,you're all are amazing!!!! guys,i'm actually an Indonesian but i live in jakarta and it is very hard to find about gamelan stuff here..though actually, jakarta is in java island!!! it is so sad,in my country here,,we often not appreciate our traditional culture anymore..even in music....i'm so supprised that you all have a lot of knowledge about gamelan,but me,as an indonesian, doesn't know anything about it!..

oh ya..if you think that i'm testing you guys..that's wrong..i'm not trying to test your knowledege by asking these questions..but the truth is that it is really hard for me ( n everyone in my country) to find anything about my country's traditional music even in my own country!! can't you believe it?!!

...please share a lot more...thx u a lot :)i'm so happy,that you all are excited about my country's traditional music....thx u so much.. :)


   
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(@demoetc)
Noble Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 2167
 

hello..wow,you're all are amazing!!!! guys,i'm actually an Indonesian but i live in jakarta and it is very hard to find about gamelan stuff here..though actually, jakarta is in java island!!! it is so sad,in my country here,,we often not appreciate our traditional culture anymore..even in music....i'm so supprised that you all have a lot of knowledge about gamelan,but me,as an indonesian, doesn't know anything about it!..

oh ya..if you think that i'm testing you guys..that's wrong..i'm not trying to test your knowledege by asking these questions..but the truth is that it is really hard for me ( n everyone in my country) to find anything about my country's traditional music even in my own country!! can't you believe it?!! ....

I don't find it hard to believe at all. I've experienced it in one or two traditions I'm involved with directly, and have heard stories of it happening in other cultures. I think it's pretty safe to say it happens, to a certain degree, in every culture. Seems like the rap/hiphop/gansta culture has some attraction to people and they don't just absorb it into their culture, but replace it completely, thereby losing their own identity - as a people/nation. The culture I'm more familiar with is the one in Hawaii, but I've heard of it happening to the youth of the Native American nations, Latin nations, the original people of Australia, Taiwan, India. The 'old folk' who the young people (of every generation actually) make fun of and don't 'take seriously', can only hold on for a certain length of time. When they go, and the younger people haven't carried on the traditions, the link to the past is lost, sometimes forever, and in my opinion, the world, the richness of the people, is diminished - greatly.

One day the youngsters wake up and feel a need to delve into their traditions, and by that time, lots of times, there's no one left to teach them. It's really tragic; people trying to be someone else all the time, never satisfied with being themselves, and when they finally *want* to be who they are, they haven't got a clue where to begin. Books and tapes and CDs are fine, but the 'at the knee' time of learning is gone.

You, being on the island, might be able to actually find a Gamelan somewhere, where you might go and ask to be taught - in the traditional ways, not just online. As I understand it, Gamelans are more or less 'common, villiage-owned' ensembles, where anyone can ask to be a part of. In other words, they should still be open enrollment sort of thing, and not all professional musicians. If you can find one of those (I know, it's a big island), you might be able to learn straight from the source. It would not only be a good thing for you personally, but you'll be helping to carry on a tradition that may very well be on the verge of extinction - like in so many other cultures. I can only speak personally of the traditions in Hawaii, where in some ways it has already gone extinct - the problem is, most of the Hawaiian people don't know it yet. They cling on to things they *think* are traditional, but they ignored the actual traditions for too long, and what they have are the outside appearance of the tradition, not the meaningful insides.

It's sad and tragic, but you might be able to make a difference in your culture.

Best regards,

Rick


   
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(@jeansen)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 95
Topic starter  

thx u ...that's mean a lot...hope i can found someone..it's hard haha cause they ( gamelan players) ussualy live in the villages in east of Java... :) thx u..keep sharing,please about gamelan..thx u :)


   
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