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major scale triads question

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(@beans7178)
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im looking at some major scale triads in the keys of C D E G and A. now my question is how come say for insatnce in the key of C the scale doesnt go as follows, C D E F G A B instead it says that the names of the chord voiings i am using ae as follows C Dm Em F G Am Bdim. and then c again. if these are triads based on the major scale how come there are minor chords invovled? im the type of person who wants to know why somethign works so any help would be appreciated. im just now starting to get into theory so dont make the explanation to complicated please.

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(@undercat)
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mmm... looking forward to an intelligent reply here...

This pattern is familiar to me, I know you can write out the pattern in the triads like this:
G A B C D E F
E F G A B C D
C D E F G A B

Where this is just the ascending scale written out 3 times starting on the root, the 3rd and the 5th, and each column is a triad.

...I think that came out right.

But despite all that, I can't recall the theoretical significance at the moment.

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(@undercat)
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I guess that's also an inversion cycle where you're playing a triad on every degree of the scale and using only notes within the scale. So if you were going to be playing in C, you could play a Dm (D-F-A)and it would sound peachy within the key.

:?:

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(@beans7178)
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Topic starter  

ok so i have no idea what you jsut said but why would a Dm be inside a Cmaj scale? thats wha i dont understand. IM lokoing at it from the perspective of playign a !-IV-V progression from it er whatever and the one four and five chords arent minor or ne thign so why are the rest of them?

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(@noteboat)
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They aren't all major in a major key - because if they were, you'd be leaving the key.

For instance - the key of C has notes C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

If the chord built on D was D major, that's D-F#-A. Since C doesn't have an F# in it, D major doesn't belong in the key of C... but make it D-F-A (D minor) and all the notes are back in key.

What you end up with for a major scale is three Major chords (on I-IV-V), three minor chords (on ii, iii, and vi) and one diminished chord on vii.

The diminished chord on vii is because you have TWO notes out of key on the vii - a B major would be B-D#-F#, and neither D# nor F# is in C. Making the D# a D instead gives you B-D-F# (B minor), but the F# still doesn't fit - lower that one too and you have B-D-F, or B diminished.

Make sense?

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(@beans7178)
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Topic starter  

surprsingly yes believe it or not, that was actually very helpful, and from that response alone i may post on here more often seems like a good oppurtunity to learn more.

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(@undercat)
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Actually the 4 and 5 are major in this instance, since they contain the major 3rd, it's just when you annotate it you don't have to say "Major", that's assumed unless it says something else.

Cm = C minor.
C = C Major.
Dm be inside a Cmaj scale? thats wha i dont understand.

It's just that if you start a chord on the 2nd tone of a scale and use only scale tones, it's going to come out a Dm. Think of it like this, if it helps you:

Say you play a C scale on a piano, no black keys. That has defined your scale. Now you play a D chord (1-3-5), using only the white keys... It's going to sound as Dm, because being forced into that scale is going to make you lower your major 3rd to a minor 3rd.

My problem is that I wouldn't know how to effectively apply that knowledge in a musical form, though I'm guessing it could be used to describe how chords sound in a modal sense...

Someone who knows stuff come in here... I'm probabl butchering this.

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(@cmaracz)
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I am not the person to ask about theory, but being a beginner myself I think I see what the thread starter is looking for.

The reason why you have minor chords in a major scale can be loked at on several definitions of why (trust me, the repsonse will be much simpler than this first sentance implies, I'm not knowledgable enough to make it any better.)

The technical reason is the formula of scales and chords as has been mentioned. A major scale as I hoep you know is whole step, wholestep, halfstep, wholestep, wholestep, wholestep, halfstep. So that gives you your C D E F G A B scale. Now to get chords from this? You start on any letter listed, skip one, take that one, skip another, than take another. So let's day you have your D as a start, skip E and take F, skip G and take A. Well to figuare out a chord you'd have to write out the major scale of that chord, now a minor chord would be the I, bIII, and V, so that's your Dm. That's the chord formula of a minor chord. You can try this both ways, try to see what chord formula the notes you have fit into by trail and error or alternatively write out your D major scale with the shharps/flats included, and find what formula that makes, and match it against a lsit of chord types. So in this case the chord would fall into the I, the bIII, and the V. That's a minor chord formula. You'd need a I, III, and V of the D major scale to get a D major chord. And as said, you don't have the III of the D major scale, the F#.

Why does this work? I'm not exactly sure. Minor chords usually sound sad because that flattened III note makes your ear interprut that interval as sad I assume. I think major chords sound happy. I assume the same applies to the scales, major=happy, while minor=sad. So I don't know why it was made so that a happy scale has sad chords. But I guess there is a reason of some sort. Either way I've tried coming up with a decent technical explanation.


   
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 sirN
(@sirn)
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It's called harmonizing the major scale. You start on a note and 'stack the thirds', meaning (as you've noted) you basically just skip a note. That formula renders the form of chord for each note. In C major, well obviously C- E -G = C chord. If you 'stacked thirds' begining on the A note of a C major scale you get A - B- C = Am chord. It just works out that way when harmonized to the triad.

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(@greybeard)
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If you follow this link, the first two table explain graphically how this comes about.

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(@hbriem)
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Here are a couple of tables that some have found useful and may explain this to you:

Harmonising the Major Scale I

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 C D E F G A B C Chord no. Chord name.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 3 5 C E G I C major
2 4 6 D F A ii D minor
3 5 7 E G B iii E minor
4 6 8 F A C IV F major
5 7 9 G B D V G major
6 8 10 A C E vi A minor
7 9 11 B D F vii° B diminished

Harmonising the Major Scale II

Half-steps: | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Major scale: C D E F G A B C D E F
CHORDS:
I = C C . . . E . . G
ii = Dm D . . F . . . A
iii = Em E . . G . . . B
IV = F F . . . A . . C
V = G G . . . B . . D
vi = Am A . . C . . . E
vii = Bdim B . . D . . F

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