Hey, thanks NoteBoat! Though I have no clue as to why most of that is true, it definitely makes a heck of a lot of sense in light of my recent attempts to figure out the underlying structure of this song. It would seem that minor keys are quite a bit more subtle than their major counterparts. That would seem to clear out the few kinks that had me stumped as to why the song couldn't be in Cm!
-Jason
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To those about to rock, we salute you!
http://www.soundclick.com/jasonwittenbach
Well Hbriem, I have learned some time ago that saying someone is "wrong", especially when it comes to music theory is a tricky thing to say. Noteboat explained it really clearly: when it comes to minor there are many possibilities. Maybe I could add that I have found that usually when people talk about minor without further specification they're talking about harmonic minor, since this is the only minor with a real leadtone for the tonic (7) and a b6 to make IV minor as well. So saying that Eb major and C minor share the same notes is a bit confusing I think. While it is true that songwriters can switch between the modes it is not very common. I know some folk tunes where both the V from harmonic minor (G7) and pure minor/natural minor (G-) are used but it is a very distinct sound and I had to get used to it.
I guess you might have seen in Noteboat's mail that D dim is not II in Cminor but VII. On II we find Dm7b5 or D-7 (melodic minor), but I think the confusion lies in the difference between the use of triads or four tone chords. The triad on II is indeed a diminished triad.
Diminished chords can be a complicated theoretical subject but I find it is easiest to remember that in (harmonic) minor there is only one "real" dim chord on VII (Bdim in the key of C minor) and one behaving as an altered subdominant (#IV) leading to V or I6/4, so:
F#o -> G7
F#o -> C-/G
Niliov
A lot of the confusion in analyzing pop songs comes from taking a classical approach to theory, I think. Niliov raised some good points about voice leading - but in my experience, pop music today usually doesn't give a second thought to how individual voices move.... it's more "pop progression" theory.
I think that shift took place with the singer/songwriter boom of the 1960s. Before that, most songwriters were pretty well educated in theory, and since then few are.
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Yes, noteboat, you are of course absolutely right!! But wouldn't you agree that if we'd all strive to play pop songs with the best voiceleading possible (sometimes it is not possible, of course!!) they would sound so much sweeter (fuller, richer). Whenever I play pop (on piano) I try to focus a lot of attention to voiceleading together with the guitarplayer and you wouldn't believe how nice it can sound (actually you WOULD believe it :))
Niliov
stumbled onto this thread because I am actually analyzing this song and I don't really hear much difference in what the key boards and what the guitar chords are playing.
From what I can hear, in the verse the guitar and keys play:
Gm/B, Cm, Fm7, Bdim7
The bass plays a harmonic/natural minor scale except for the b5 moving from Cm to Fm7.
this is standard Cm so not sure why it is causing so much confusion. Am I oversimplifying?
except for the b5 moving from Cm to Fm7.
Sorry for my ignorance. But can you elaborate a bit on that?? Thank you.
