Blutic, they overlap.
If you start, for example, with the Ionian pattern and the root on the third fret, that's the G scale.
The last two positions of the Ionian box become the first two positions of the second box (named Dorian here). The last two positions of a shape are always the first two positions of the next shape. That's how they interlock.
So, you can start with the Ionian on the third fret and play the boxes up the neck (moving toward the twelfth fret and beyond). That's the G major scale up the neck.
If, on the other hand, as Rayman says, you started with the Dorian shape and the third fret (G) as the root and played all the boxes, you'd be playing the Dorian mode of the G scale.
The only tricky thing is sometimes psyching out where to begin, etc. Remember if you want to psych out how to start a scale down the neck by the nut you might have to puzzle things out a bit. For example, if you work with the C major scale (beginning with box one-Ionian), starting on the eighth fret and play it until you cross the twelfth fret, you have a mirror image of how to play the scale up at the nut. (Hope that made sense).
Tim
Well we all shine on--like the moon and the stars and the sun.
-- John Lennon
If you look at these patterns and then compare them to the patterns from the website I referenced above you can see how they are very similar. The notes are the same but I believe the fingerings are easier in the patterns from the other website. Also, it lays out how to play a mode all across the neck. I think it is a handier chart. I am going to print this discussion and all these charts and take them to my teacher tomorrow and get his take on all this. It seems to me there is more than one way to frig this cat and once you understand the different ways, you should then decide which ways work best in a given situation. Thanks for the help, things are slightly clearer now.
If you look at these patterns and then compare them to the patterns from the website I referenced above you can see how they are very similar. The notes are the same but I believe the fingerings are easier in the patterns from the other website. Also, it lays out how to play a mode all across the neck. I think it is a handier chart. I am going to print this discussion and all these charts and take them to my teacher tomorrow and get his take on all this. It seems to me there is more than one way to frig this cat and once you understand the different ways, you should then decide which ways work best in a given situation. Thanks for the help, things are slightly clearer now.
Absolutely lots of ways to skin this critter, I suspect. And I suspect that everyone's most comfortable with the way he or she started. Bottom line -- it's really fascinating. But Rayman's charts -- the same maps I've been learning from with my teacher -- don't really show fingerings, just scale patterns. Well, okay, maybe the patterns imply certain fingerings. Never mind.
Well we all shine on--like the moon and the stars and the sun.
-- John Lennon
Now that the Modal Mastery is behind us, does anyone want to lay out the chord progressions to go with the seven patterns.
You might want to start a new thread on that. This one's getting kind of full...
Peace
After consulting a lesson in GuitarOne Magazine, I found that the patterns listed on the website http://www.guitarplaying.com/theory/scales/
are called box patterns, while the ones posted above are the diagonal patterns. Both are correct for playing in modes.
After sleeping on it, I woke up and realized I have been thinking about modes all wrong. For example I was thinking the Ionian mode is the same as the major scale, and the Aeolian mode is the same as the minor scale. They are the same notes but they are not the same. You can play in the major or minor scale all over the neck using all the patterns, and never hit a wrong note. But to play in the Ionian or Aeolian mode you have to make sure you are playing the right order or that the root note of the mode is played first to set the modal flavor. For example: you can play in C major anywhere on the neck as long as you play CDEFGAB. But to play in the Dorian mode of C major, D Dorian, you need to start on D and go after a DEFGABC flow. If you jump to a scale patten that is FGABCD the techincally you are still in key but the Dorian mode flavor is out the window.
Have I got it?
You don't need to start at the root note when you're playing modally. Playing in the Ionian mode is exactly the same as playing a song using the major scale.
Like I said before - get another instrument playing the root note. If there's the note 'E' ringing out, everything will be heard in relation to that 'E'. If you play the note 'G', that's a minor third above the root note, so the listener knows you're playing in one of the three minor modes (Dorian, Phrygian or Aeolian) or possibly even tackling the Locrian mode. If you then play an 'A' and a 'C', the Dorian mode is ruled out, but the other modes are still in the game.
Get the idea? You've played three notes so far. None of them are the root note, but because the backing instrument is churning out the note 'E', it's pretty clear that it's an 'E' mode of some kind. A few bars in and a lot of notes later, it should be crystal clear which mode you're using.
The patterns I posted are called 'Three note per string' patterns. You get used to moving from the second to the third string in time. The advantage these patterns have is that you can play a scale fragment up and down the pattern from the lowest to the highest string, without having to remember which strings have two notes and which have three. You can switch off your brain and let your fingers fall into a natural rhythm. The patterns are especially good for 6 note fragments.
OK. Using the patterns to solo over the whole fretboard. Let's say you're playing in A minor. (A Aeolian)
All of these patterns are made up of exactly the same notes:
Lydian pattern starting at the first fret.
Mixolydian pattern starting at the third fret.
Aeolian pattern at the fifth fret.
Locrian at the seventh.
Ionian at the eighth.
Dorian at the tenth.
Phrygian at the twelfth.
Then it starts again - Lydian at the thirteenth, Mixolydian at the fifteenth, and so on and so forth.
If you've got some music software on your PC - just set up an A minor chord and get it ringing out. Then play all of the patterns in the places I've listed and it'll all make perfect sense. Even though you're using all seven 'modal patterns', because the root note is 'A', they've all become 'A Aeolian' scales.
*bump*
Well we all shine on--like the moon and the stars and the sun.
-- John Lennon
Seems like I've said this in a bunch of threads on modes with the same misconception... that a chord or a second instrument determines the mode. It can't - it might establish a harmony, but not a mode.
Modes are a melodic device. The A natural minor scale sounds different fromt the C major scale, even though both have exactly the same notes. If you take a scale in C major, and play it over an A minor chord, it will still be a C major scale - you won't hear it as an Aeolian melody, even though it's over the A minor chord.
Yes, I know it will sound different over Am... but it won't sound like a minor melody. There are three basic elements to music: rhythm, melody, and harmony. A change to one will not affect the others, and modes are melodic.
The best way to understand modes is by looking at them as variations on a major scale, rather than a major scale with a different starting point. Instead of thinking of C Lydian as a G scale starting on the fourth note, think of it as a C major scale with a raised fourth. Mixolydian has a flatted seventh, and so on.
If you approach them that way, you'll still be focused on the root of the mode - you'll be playing in C Lydian, rather than G major, or C Mixolydian rather than F major.
Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL
Seems like I've said this in a bunch of threads on modes with the same misconception... that a chord or a second instrument determines the mode.
You've said it so many times that even I'm starting to get bothered when people get it wrong.
Although other notes will not change the mode you're in at all, and they won't make the melody you're playing sound like it's in any particular mode, a drone can help you focus on the mode you want to play in. Playing a C major scale over an A note drone won't put you in A aeolian, but listening to that A can help you focus on the mode you're aiming for. It could be helpful if you're having trouble making the different modes seem different from the major scale with the same root.
Hey guys,
This is an old thread that I bumped up because of Rayman's modes/box diagrams (on the second page of the thread I think). Just trying to make it more accessible in response to a question on another thread. The original post was several months ago.
Peace!
Tim
Well we all shine on--like the moon and the stars and the sun.
-- John Lennon
Lo and behold, exactly what I Was looking for, thanks guys
*wonders where this thread from 11 months ago suddenly popped up and why?!*
*wonders where this thread from 11 months ago suddenly popped up and why?!*
Hey guys,
This is an old thread that I bumped up because of Rayman's modes/box diagrams (on the second page of the thread I think). Just trying to make it more accessible in response to a question on another thread. The original post was several months ago.
Peace!
Well we all shine on--like the moon and the stars and the sun.
-- John Lennon
woops, my eyes cheated me :oops:
