Oh boy - Hope I haven't bitten off more than I can chew

Modes can be really confusing. Few guitarists who talk about them actually use them (although they may THINK they're using them); few guitarists who actually use them can explain them well.

Your first question: how does he know the parent scale of F9sus is Bb?

Answer: F9sus has the notes F-G-Bb-C-Eb. There are two flats in the chord, Bb and Eb, and the key of Bb has those two flats. You're correct in assuming there are other possible parent scales that contain those notes - they're the Eb scale (which has Bb, Eb, and Ab - since Ab isn't in the chord, you can't rule it out) and the Ab scale (which adds Db to the mix, which also isn't in the chord). But those are the only three choices; the next flat key, Db, contains Gb - and G natural is in the chord, so you can rule that one out.

So how does he know it has to be Bb for the parent scale? Because he says the chord is being used as a substitute for F7. F7 has the notes F-A-C-Eb; with A natural in the chord, you can't be in Eb or Ab, because they both have Ab in them. Since we now know that F7 would work over the progression, we know the scale contains A. And since it contains A, the "parent scale" must be Bb major.

For the next question, I agree that the Greek names may confuse things for some. But they're the labels in common use, so I think it's more confusing to start using different labels. But I also think it's even MORE confusing to call Dorian "the second mode"... because it leads you to think in the wrong key. If D Dorian is the "second mode", it steers your thinking to the key of C (which would be the "first mode"), and that practically guarantees your playing won't sound modal. You'll end up thinking in C, and D Dorian is NOT the same as C major or Ionian.

For the P.S, there are a lot more than two ways to learn the modes... or at least, I've heard a lot more ways that they're "taught". I spent about 2-3 years struggling to understand modes, tried both of the methods you list, and several others, and none of them clicked. Once I got them, I saw the weaknesses of the previous methods.
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In your method A (using a major scale fingering over a drone) you're hoping that your ear will get you to playing modally, because using the major scale pattern will sound best over a drone if you're arranging your solo as a mode (treating D as the tonic, or key note). This may work for some, but I think it's a poor method. For one thing, you're thinking in C, and D Dorian is not C major. For another, you may learn how to use the mode over a D drone... but that's not much of a step in the direction of playing over a chord progression.

Method B falls short because modes don't have "shapes". Keys have shapes. If you're thinking of a scale fingering as a "shape", those same notes appear in ALL SEVEN modes in that key. You can use the same fingering to produce any mode. Thinking of modes as specific fingerings won't guarantee your playing sounds modal, but it WILL guarantee you'll neglect almost half the guitar's range - you're stuck in one fingering for each mode.

The method that worked for me (and one I've been teaching for nearly 35 years) is to see the modes as altered scales. If you think of Dorian as a natural minor scale with a raised sixth, you're thinking in terms of the right key note. D natural minor = D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C-D; raising the sixth gets you to D-E-F-G-A-B-C. While those are the same notes as "the key of C starting from D", the thinking is different, and the results will actually be modal.

Dorian = natural minor with a #6
Phrygian = natural minor with a b2
Lydian = major scale with a #4
Mixolydian = major scale with a b7

Don't attempt the Locrian until you're fluent in Phrygian. The Locrian is then simply Phrygian with a b5.

This approach is just as simple to understand as any other mode method I've encountered (and a lot simpler than many). It keeps your thinking in the right tonal center, which is the critical factor separating one mode from another. And once you grasp modal playing this way, you can apply the principle to any fingering on the fretboard... and it works.

Thanks noteboat.......

I was playing with the idea of modes from about 11.30pm to 1am last night :lol: I dug out an old book where I had thought - how the hell do I get familiar with this? What I had done was taken the basic scales - major or minor and said - it is like scale but with a sharpened or flattened "x" - I.e. Dorian - minor scale with a sharpened 6th. That made loads of sense to me - but when I took it to my guitar teacher he was confusing me more by writing down how you translate dorian from a major scale into a dorian scale and I was like - this makes no sense at all. So he put for dorian - Minor 3rd, Maj 6th, b 7th - but I think the method you and I came up with is more sensible.
Answer: F9sus has the notes F-G-Bb-C-Eb. There are two flats in the chord, Bb and Eb, and the key of Bb has those two flats. You're correct in assuming there are other possible parent scales that contain those notes - they're the Eb scale (which has Bb, Eb, and Ab - since Ab isn't in the chord, you can't rule it out) and the Ab scale (which adds Db to the mix, which also isn't in the chord). But those are the only three choices; the next flat key, Db, contains Gb - and G natural is in the chord, so you can rule that one out.

Did you mean - you can rule out that mode because Ab isn't in the chord? Just wanted to check that is just a typo - didn't seem to add up 100% to me. You also said that Ionian - it is not the same as Dorian... which I only half understand.

That was really useful - I looked at the chapters after this first one..... I think these first two are just him showing everything he can do - which to me is a bit scary - hopefully the next chapters break it down more - some of his playing to me is way too hard too. He uses his right hand a lot faster than I can go, unfortunately my left hand *hammer ons and pulls offs* is way faster than what my right hand can acheive. Maybe you have tips on that? I bet it involves a metronome.

One last question - I just thought about, if you can't to play in modes - you said you look at the chord to decide the mode. Is that just the chord of the key of the song? Or are you changing mode every time a new chord pops up? Or does that depend on the style - this is now the hardest part for me to comprehend.

I meant you CAN rule out the key of Db, because the chord contains D. Going strictly by chord tones, it could be in Bb, Eb, or Ab. Including the fact that the chord is a substitute for F7 narrows it down to only Bb.

C Ionian is not the same as D Dorian. The first is a major sounding scale in C; the second is a minor sounding scale in D. It's pretty obvious that C major isn't C Dorian:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C

That's essentially the difference between modes. The relationships between scale tones and the tonal center are different. The labels we use for the pitches don't matter. If I use numbers instead, it looks like this:

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1
1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7-1

Still obviously different, right? So if I use C for the "1" in the first scale, and D for the "1" in the second, the results will still SOUND obviously different:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

The fact that they use the same pitch names is meaningless, and distracting. Almost all the confusion about modes can be traced to this - the scales use the same material, but that doesn't make them the same. Don't focus on the ingredients - focus on the sound that results. (Saying they're the same because they're made of the same stuff is like saying beer and bread are the same because they both use grain, yeast, water and seasoning)

Changing modes for every chord in a song is one thing a lot of guitarists talk about. It's a useless approach.

Here's why....

Situation A: A diatonic chord progression. Many songs stay in one key, or use a series of chords to create a "key of the moment". Let's say the song is a jazz tune that goes Am7-D7-Gmaj7, A lot of guitarists will tell you that over a ii-V-I progression like that you should play in A Dorian, D Mixolyidian, and G Ionian. Since they all have the same notes, this gets you exactly the same results as playing in G major all the way through, no matter what''s going on in your head.

There are several reasons this approach is a waste of brainpower. A big one is that the only difference between modes is their tonal centers... and it takes time to develop a melody that actually has a tonal center that you can "feel" (which is really the only practical way to identify them!). In compositional terms you need a period or a phrase to create a tonal center - an idea that's somewhat complete in itself. For the listener to be able to identify a tonal center therefore requires at least 2-4 measures under most circumstances.

Second, a chord progression may have its own tonal center. The stronger the chord cadence, the stronger the motion towards a tonal center in the harmony. A V-I authentic cadence (the term used in the US; many other countries call it a "perfect" cadence, which has another meaning here) is about as strong as you can get. Since that D7 chord is resolving to Gmaj7, that's your tonal center for the harmony.... and since D mixolydian has the same notes as G major, your melody as a whole will sound like it's in G major, no matter how hard you think about the modes.

Situation B: Your progression includes an altered chord, and you use some exotic divination method to associate that chord with a mode, playing that mode over the chord. Let's say the progression goes Dm7-Db9#11-Cmaj6. I've heard many guitarists say you use a Lydian scale over any chord with a #11, because the Lydian has a #4 (same as 11) compared to the major scale. Over the Db9#11 they'd play D Lydian.

But let's take a look at that chord:

Db-F-Ab-Cb-Eb-G

If we put it in sequence, we have:

Db-Eb-F-G-Ab-Cb. We are only missing a B note. Scales that completely fit the harmony will be 1-2-3-#4-5-b6-b7 or 1-2-3-#4-5-6-b7. These scales are the Lydian minor and the Lydian dominant - neither one of which is a "mode". So this little rule of thumb doesn't work in this particular situation - the b7 in the chord will clash with the natural 7 in the mode. In addition, the particular chart I pulled this example from has the #11 for only two beats - you probably won't be using all the scale tones in that limited amount of time, which means you're not really playing a mode at all - no matter what's going on in your head.

Most of the time guitarists spend thinking about modes is pretty wasted, in my opinion. I find modes useful in very limited situations:

1. They are used over a "modal progression" - a two or three chord vamp that does not have a dominant chord type. These are similar in nature to your drone example earlier - repetitive, with a harmony that has space to choose more than one scale. For example, Freddie Hubbard's "Little Sunflower" has 16 bars of Dm7... over that you could use D Dorian, D Phrygian, or D natural minor and all will sound fine (but it's best to pick just one and stick to it!) That's followed by four measures of Ebmaj7, then 4 of Dmaj7. Here you could switch to a major sounding scale with a natural 7 (major or Lydian) and change the scale root as the chords change - play in Eb Lydian followed by D Lydian (or Eb major, then D major, but those aren't really "modal").

2. You have a progression that's a series of chords of the same TYPE. Let's say you're going to solo over "Hey Joe" and you want to try it modally. The progression is C-G-D-A-E, all major chords. You could pick a major type mode (Lydian or Mixolydian) and change scale roots over each chord.

While this approach can work, it's going to flow best if you get away from the idea that modes have fingerings, and just look at the notes you'll change - you'd want to stay in one general place on the fretboard rather than yanking your hand around every couple of beats. So let's say I choose Mixolydian, and play in 5th or 6th position. I'm going to label the scale fingerings with names like "4A" - that means fourth finger root on the A string.

C major: 5th position 4E fingering, but flat the B notes. (The same fingering as 4A F major, but with a different tonal center)
G major: 5th position 1D fingering, but flat the F notes (same as 4E C major, different tonal center)
D major: 5th position 1A fingering, but flat the C notes (same as 1D G major)
A major: 5th position 1E fingering, but flat the G notes (same as 1A D major
E major: 4th position 4A fingering, but flat the D notes (same as 2E A major)

This approach works because the tone that makes the mode different from the major scale appears over EVERY chord, and in the same relationship to the chord root.

Outside of those two situations there aren't many places that modes can be used well. And in those rarer situations you're usually faced with other challenges - in my opinion you'd be better served by learning all your chord arpeggios and basing your solos from those. The results will usually sound better, and you'll have added more practical tools to your kit than if you spent the same amount of time worrying about what mode works where.

So basically....... you don't think modes are really a worthy investment of time?

I found the thing you wrote out on mixolydian for hey joe...... quite confusing - can't you just tell me what notes I am meant to play - or am I mean't to play a scale starting from each of those notes? Sorry, you just made my brain explode :shock:

They're worth it if you want to play modal music. They're not worth it if you're just looking for ways to improve in general, because they're limited in their usefulness.

If I told you what notes to play, it really wouldn''t help you much - you'd just be learning riffs from me, not modal use. But here are the patterns I referred to - this is the way I teach major scale fingerings (there are more, but these are the ones I referenced). All are shown in the key of C, but all can be moved to any position you want. I'm showing them all in the same key because I think it would be helpful for you to move them around and think about the notes involved.

1E fingering: C in 8th position

| C | | D | | E |
| | | A | | B |
| | E | F | | G | (the G can also be played 8th fret 2nd string if you want)
| | B | C | | D |
| F | | G | | A |
| C | | D | | E |


4E fingering: C in 5th position

| A | | B | C |
| E | F | | G |
| C | | D | |
| G | | A | | B | (either stretch for the B at the 9th fret or shift to 4th position for it on the G string)
| D | | E | F |
| A | | B | C |


1A fingering: C in 3rd position

| G | | A | |
| D | | E | F |
| | B | C | |
| F | | G | |
| C | | D | | E | (you can shift for E on the 2nd fret of the D string if you want)
| G | | A | | B | (you can shift for B on the 5th string if you want)


4A fingering: C in 12th position, or 1st position with the first row of boxes representing open strings

| E | F | | G |
| B | C | | D |
| G | | A | |
| D | | E | F |
| A | | B | C |
| E | F | | G |


1D fingering: C in 10th position

| D | | E | F |
| A | | B | C |
| F | | G | |
| C | | D | | E | (you can also get E at 9th fret 3rd string if you want)
| G | | A | | B | (B is also at 9th fret 4th string)
| D | | E | F |


Okay...... I understand that more...... - Is the idea there that you are playing different modes by playing in different places? They all looked like c major to me.

No, places don't matter. In the earlier post suggesting one approach to Hey Joe, I gave the fingering types and keys, which would keep them all in the same fret.

So what you have to do is:

a) move those fingerings to the appropriate key)
b) make the changes needed to turn each C major (or A natural minor) fingering into the mode you want.
c) focus on the root note of the chord as your keynote of the moment

Okay now I get it.......

To be honest... I've known major scale/minor scale - shapes all over the neck for years now because my guitar teacher drilled it into me. I think I could even manage to play in modes - but I don't know when it is appropriate really - dorian with rock/blues licks seems to always work. Any tips?

Each mode has its own quality - just as all scales do. Dorian works well for minor key modal jazz, or bluesy rock. Mixolydian works well in many folk rock contexts. Phrygian gives you a sort of Spanish feel. Lydian works well over jazzy major progressions.

But those are just my own perceptions - and when I improvise, I'm not thinking "I'll play in Phrygian here" - although I might think "the b2 would work well here" Good solos aren't so much about a choice of fingering or scale... they're about the interval relationships that make up the line.

Do you ever think - well that is ninth chord - I know what notes are in that so I will try this scale? Or is it even less thought about than that - you just hear what would work? If that is so, I'd like to know how you got to that point :lol:

I guess I'm at the point where in a chord progression for a song I know, I know it's a ninth chord, I know what notes are in it, and I know what the next note I want to play is going to sound like. What I don't know in an improvisational setting is what voicing or rhythm the other musicians may throw out there - so there's always an element of having to respond to surprises.

I may think of a specific scale when I start, but after that I really don't. The only time I'm really worried about scales is if I'm playing bebop (and there I'm more worried about arpeggios) because the changes come so frequently that I'm still thinking more logically than musically - when I try to think musically in bebop I still get lost sometimes. I think that's a sign that I need to know those tunes better; my "practice" time on that doesn't even involve a guitar... I just spend a lot of time listening to great soloists.

How I got to where I am is pretty much the way I teach improvisation today. I ended up with more than a few side trips down blind alleys in my own path, so I leave those parts out, but the rest is pretty sequential.

1. Learn a scale and fool around with it
2. Focus on creating phrases and giving it a basic structure
3. Be aware of the chord behind me
4. Target specific chord tones, and incorporate them at the right points in my phrases
5. Experiment with the sound of each non-chord tone over each chord - get to know what I can do with them
6. Use compositional techniques to incorporate notes outside the key (which is very useful for handling mistakes when your fingers don't work as planned)
7. Play a lot. Then play some more.

Concurrent with all of the above: ear training, ear training, and ear training.

Hey Noteboat....

Today I was working out a jazz lick, been doing this quite a bit - it's the most direct way for me to feel like I am playing jazz even though it is just copying really. But hey! It trains my ears..... now I suppose one way I should go is to try figure out what chords are in it. That may be problematic..... I worked out a fingerstyle piece (misty) by ear - I tried to name the chords, not sure if they are right - I transcribed the whole thing into tab with pencil and paper. I used Jguitar to name some of them but it often gives multiple names so I went with the ones that sounded right to me. I can work out what basic chords are - minors 7ths, maybe even ninths - but some of the chords I'm not sure how I can say it is specifically a certain name when it could be a number of things. :P You are probably getting tired of this now Tom, I keep asking you more and more things. How do you go about deciding "yes it is that chord" when it could be a number of things.

That's not always an easy question to answer.

My first student today fingered an F barre chord at the first fret, then lifted his index finger and asked me what that chord would be. So I'll use that as an example - he was playing 033200, or ECFABE.

If we assume one of the notes is the root, we could get the following:

ECFAB = 1-b6-b9-4-5. Not very likely; with no seventh it's (probably) not an altered dominant.
CFABE = 1-4-6-7-3. This one is possible; with both 3 and 4 in the chord, the 4 must be 11. With 7 in the chord, 6 must be 13. So this could be Cmaj13, voiced 1-3-7-11-13
FABEC = 1-3-#4-7-5. Also possible, as Fmaj7(#11)
ABECF = 1-2-5-b3-b6. Not very likely; there's no 7, so it's (probably) not an altered dominant.
BECFA = 1-4-b9-b5-b7. Possible, as B7susb5b9

But those aren't the only options. There are two other things to consider: first, you might not be playing all the notes in a chord. If a chart calls for G9, I might play x2323x in some situations. That's still a G9 chord (and not a Bm7b5) - I'm just not playing the root as part of my voicing.

Second, notes that you ARE playing may not be part of the chord. The voicing my student played might well be F major, with the E and B strings played as a drone. If those strings are in all the chords (example: the beginning of "Melissa" by the Allman Brothers), they're a drone or pedal, and don't have to be part of the name.

Taking all that into consideration, you might have more than one possible name. You might have half a dozen. So how do you know what makes the most sense?

First, listen for the chord function. If it sounds major (or minor, or dominant), it should probably have a major (or minor or dominant) name. So eliminate the names that don't seem to convey the quality of the chord in the context of the tune.

Next, look at the root motion. If you have a tune that's Dm7 - G9 - Cmaj7 - Em9 - ??? - Gmaj11, and the mystery chord clearly sounds dominant, it's probably a D chord - that would make the progression a ii-V-I that then moves up a whole step and repeats ii-V-I. If you don't have a D in the chord, that's ok. If the notes you have are Bb-C-F#, don't worry about naming the weird triad - look at the notes in relation to D:

Bb = b6
C = b7
F# = 3

Since it's supposed to sound dominant, and it's got that 3-b7 conflict, it's some kind of altered D 7th. Renaming Bb leads you to D-F#-A#-C, or 1-3-#5-b7... and the chord is D7+

Sometimes figuring out the right name for a chord seems like a dark art. Most of the time that isn't true - find the function, see what root motion makes sense, and then take a second look at how notes can be re-named to convey it clearly and concisely.

Well.. I just played Gmaj11 for the first time - the open chord seems ridiculously hard and... I don't even know how to construct that.

I also have never come across a D7+ chord or any kind of D+ chord - I wouldn't know how to construct that either. Is there a lesson on guitar noise about constructing weird chords - I can do the most basic ones, I think I can even do ninths but my memory is a bit sketchy there - I think if you do a ninth you need the 1st 3rd 5th 7th and 9th. If you do an 11th I then think you need all of those notes from the ninth but with an 11th added because those chords are made by stacking 3rds, if I am right...

In my transcription of misty - I have this chord

E-x-
B-6-
G-5-
D-4-
A-x-
E-4-

Which I call G#13 - I think that is right