Regarding learning Modes

Modes are over-rated.

They're easy to understand: a mode results from changing the tonal center of a major scale. If you start a C major scale with the D note, you get D Dorian: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

Because they're so logically simple, the majority of guitarists think they have a grasp of them, and don't. They try to relate things to the underlying major scale, which means they end up playing in the major scale and saying they're in the mode.

I teach modes only to advanced students, and we approach them as scale alterations. Let's say you want to learn the Dorian mode... it's got a b3, so it has a minor sound. Although you'll be most comfortable using it over a minor chord, modes have absolutely nothing to do with harmony (anyone who tells you the mode changes if the chord changes has no real concept of modes)

So play a D minor chord, and play the D harmonic minor scale over it:

D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C#-D

Now play the D Dorian mode over it:

D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

The raising of the sixth, and lowering of the 7th, is what gives the Dorian a different sound than the harmonic minor scale.

Try the same thing again with the Lydian. Since the Lydian has a cheery sound to it, try it over a major chord, and against a major scale:

C major - C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
C Lydian - C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C

The most important thing in using a mode is to relate it to the mode root rather than the underlying major scale. If you would normally use a C major scale over a progression, play the C Lydian instead. That will get you used to the subtle differences between the scale and the mode.

Start with those two - Lydian and Dorian. After your ears are accustomed to the modal sound, then move on to the Mixolydian (which has a b7 compared to the major scale) and the Phrygian, which has b2, b6, and b7 compared to the harmonic minor.

The Aeolian is the same as the natural minor, and the Ionian is the same as the major scale, so they shouldn't present problems. Ignore the Locrian - it's a theoretical construct, not a historic mode.

I teach the Lydian before the Mixolydian because the b7 is used in so many other things - the pentatonic, the blues scale, the V7 arpeggio, etc. - that the modal difference between the Mixolydian and the major scale won't strike your ear the way the #4 does. Get used to the #4, and you'll be prepared to hear the b7 in a different way.

Thanks Noteboat.

Modes may not be the right thing for me to be working on at my level.

I've learned a lot from all the lessons and articles and I am starting to work on the "Songs for Intermediates" section. I am making real progress but feel sort of lost on what else I should be working on. I really don't have the time to go to private lessons at this time.

I know it may be a broad question, but what should I do next?

Thanks

Boy, that sure is a broad question!

I'm afraid I don't have the background to answer it - I don't know what music you play, what you aspire to play, or what you already know.

I think I need to hang out on the Beginners board for a while yet. I can tell that I am definitely making progress. I guess I'm just a little impatient.
I'll come back to the Theory board when I know enough to know what to ask.

Thanks again Noteboat.

This thread = deja vu :roll:

Modes are over-rated.

They're easy to understand: a mode results from changing the tonal center of a major scale. If you start a C major scale with the D note, you get D Dorian: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

Because they're so logically simple, the majority of guitarists think they have a grasp of them, and don't. They try to relate things to the underlying major scale, which means they end up playing in the major scale and saying they're in the mode.

I teach modes only to advanced students, and we approach them as scale alterations. Let's say you want to learn the Dorian mode... it's got a b3, so it has a minor sound. Although you'll be most comfortable using it over a minor chord, modes have absolutely nothing to do with harmony (anyone who tells you the mode changes if the chord changes has no real concept of modes)

So play a D minor chord, and play the D harmonic minor scale over it:

D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C#-D

Now play the D Dorian mode over it:

D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

The raising of the sixth, and lowering of the 7th, is what gives the Dorian a different sound than the harmonic minor scale.

Try the same thing again with the Lydian. Since the Lydian has a cheery sound to it, try it over a major chord, and against a major scale:

C major - C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
C Lydian - C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C

The most important thing in using a mode is to relate it to the mode root rather than the underlying major scale. If you would normally use a C major scale over a progression, play the C Lydian instead. That will get you used to the subtle differences between the scale and the mode.

Start with those two - Lydian and Dorian. After your ears are accustomed to the modal sound, then move on to the Mixolydian (which has a b7 compared to the major scale) and the Phrygian, which has b2, b6, and b7 compared to the harmonic minor.

The Aeolian is the same as the natural minor, and the Ionian is the same as the major scale, so they shouldn't present problems. Ignore the Locrian - it's a theoretical construct, not a historic mode.

I teach the Lydian before the Mixolydian because the b7 is used in so many other things - the pentatonic, the blues scale, the V7 arpeggio, etc. - that the modal difference between the Mixolydian and the major scale won't strike your ear the way the #4 does. Get used to the #4, and you'll be prepared to hear the b7 in a different way.

Wow,when you say it like that it's all so clear.

Hey Wadesisk,

I'd like to try to offer some advice to you and anyone in the same boat as yourself. Once being there myself i went through alot of the same things you are probably wondering and feeling. On the issue modes, that it something that comes in time, trust me, i spent many a late night in front of the computer screen typing "how modes work" into Yahoo and seeing what i could find, while most of it was fairly useless, reading lots of different articles on it kind of brought the broad idea of it a little more clearly into my head. But your question, what should i do next, while broad is something everyone wonders. A really really good place to start is by learning some basic music theory, i learned alot of what i know online at websites like guitar noise, also, maybe at your school or at a local music store they may offer beginner music theory lessons. While some of this stuff is pretty boring, knowing the basics makes the complicated stuff seem a little more reasonable, baby steps. Also learning different chords and scales, and different places on the neck to play them are all things you can do. I will say to sit around your house for a few hours a day playing scales and chords is kinda dull. But after a week or so of practicing, when you actully sit down to play it's pretty amazing some of the stuff you'll see that you came up with. So i hope this helps you or atleast gives you some sort of direction (it's something we all need) Remember, Rome wasn't built in day and neither was a great musician. Good Luck.

Having read this and several other threads on GN about modes, I have come to the conclusion that they may be wrongly presented to the learner.

Perhaps, if we were to simply say that there are several types of scale - major Ionian, relative minor Aeolian, Harmonic minor, melodic minor, minor Dorian, minor Phrygian, major Lydian, major Mixolydian and "Oddball" Locrian, there would be less confusion. So a (major) Mixolydian is a major scale with a flat vii and a (minor) Phrygian is a minor scale with a flat ii.

Once that has been learnt, then they could learn the relationship to the major scale, as a secondary path.

You got a point Greybeard. We tell guitarists that modes are just the major scale starting on a different note. Then we turn around and tell 'em NOT to look at it that way. Geez. :shock: For me, it would have been easier had I been told that they were different scales and one day I would have made a Revolation that they were related to the notes of the major scale. But I would have already learned it the hard/right way.

Oh well. That's why I love a sweet pentatonic any day of the week. :lol:

furious_b

Thanks for the pointers.

Later