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Some other chord substitutions

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(@niliov)
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Joined: 18 years ago
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Glad you liked it!

Some answers:

King wrote:

"...I actually do find it odd in that you have the desired music transcribed out, so in every instance where you use a slash chord it's entirely superfluous as the information is already there. There's no reason to write C-7/Bb in measure 8 when the arpeggio clearly shows the Bb in the base.
I would expect to see that as simply Edim on the chord chart if this is arranged for a single guitar..."

Normally when I arrange for classical orchestras or string quartets or any chamber music ensemble of course I do not write any chord symbols in the part, that would be destracting. But for jazzmusicians and especially guitar players I have found that they can read music but really like the added chord symbol to help them remember the form on the neck, so that's why! I'm guessing the E dim thing is a typo because the C-7/Bb can not be substituted by an E dim, I mean there is an Eb in the chord, how can that be Edim?

Noteboat:
"...measure 3 &35: the notation is for a D9 (no fifth), but the chord symbol is D7 ..."

The more I talk to you guys the more I'm convinced we do things quite differently in Europe than in the US. I write D7, because that is the chord in that place, when I definitely want extensions I write them also (D7/9) and if I really want a specific voicing I just write the notes, but I keep the chord symbol as simple as possible.

"...measure 9: the 'Foct' notation threw me - that's not a symbol I run into very often - as did the notes. Since F is sharped by the key signature, I would have probably written an F note on top instead of the enharmonic Gb (otherwise your F chord lacks any F notes), and I might have named it F#m+/b13 ..."

"oct" obviously is something I came up with, just because sometimes I am eiter too lazy to write b9/13, or more often I find that there is not enough space on the paper to write the latter, so oct. is shorter (its short for octotonic). The main key signature might be G but the verse is actually in Bb I just made a modulation to G afterwards. I really prefer not to use chord names that do not fit into the key and so F#m for me would be out of the question in Bb major! But anyway, the voicing is just a standard guitar voicing for F7b9/13 without the root (sixth position: first finger on the Eb on th A string and the third finger flat on the other three notes). Often guitar players shift this chord over the neck (three frets up or down) to emphasize the octotonic sound! I wrote Gb to convey the b9 on F7.

"...measure 55: because of the C included, I'd write it Dsus7b9 ..."

Yup, you're right, that's just a mistake in the part!

Musenfreund wrote:
"...Why is it called the moll dur scale? Moll is German for minor and Dur means major. Are you referring to a diatonic scale?..."

Exactly, the scale is a mixture between major and minor (major third, but minor sixth) this way you can use some minor colors in major without modulating completely to a minor key (Harry Connick is VERY fond of this).

There is also a Dur Moll scale (major colors used in minor) but that's the same scale as the minor melodic scale:
C D Eb F G A B (minor third, major sixth).
This last principle is used with frequency in traditional folk music where in the key of Cminor you will find both Fmajor chords and Fminor chords!

Niliov


   
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(@kingpatzer)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

Glad you liked it!

Some answers:

King wrote:

"I would expect to see that as simply Edim on the chord chart if this is arranged for a single guitar..."

I'm guessing the E dim thing is a typo because the C-7/Bb can not be substituted by an E dim, I mean there is an Eb in the chord, how can that be Edim?

More correctly an oversight. I was focused on what I was writting, going from the guitar to the score and to the computer and overlooked the acccidental earlier in the measure. Though I should have recognized that C-7/Bb is an Eb- not an Edim anyway, so no excuses :)

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@naviens)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 10
 

Oke, thanks for explaining me about that "-" Kingpatzer. I still don't understand what that G+ is doing in bar 8 though. It isn't a chord in the key of Bb (it would be Gm then), so I guess it's a substition for something, but I don't see how...


   
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(@niliov)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 70
Topic starter  

Hi Naviens,

The G+ is not a chord in Bb directly but it is however an altered dominant for a chord degree in Bb -> II . So we say: a secondary dominant (or "subdominant" in Dutch) for II (C-). A tiny (and hopefully short) note:

G+ indicates that the fifth is sharp, I've written this symbol in the part for lack of a better one! To me this chord is NOT a triad with a raised fifth (#5) but with a delayed fifth (suspended fifth) without resolution to the normal fifth. The fifth is delayed with a minor sixth, but there is no way to convey this in a chord symbol. In analysis I feel you should write (many people disagree, warning before you start using it too ):

bar 8: II [V-6]6 II2 V6/5

so [V-6]6 means: dominant (V) in relation to the next chord [], with a suspended fifth by the minor sixth (-6) with the third in the bass (6). The two sixes obviously are confusing so I would choose to write second 6 below the numeral or maybe even a 3 (third in the bass).

Probably somebody will now bring up that it is not a #5 but a b13, if so I will address this later as not to make all my posts too long.

Niliov


   
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(@naviens)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 10
 

Ah off course, I didn't think of that (probably because I usually only associate -7's with (secondary) dominant functions, but this works fine too). Thanks!


   
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(@niliov)
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Joined: 18 years ago
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Heyheyhey,

It has been a long time. Perhaps some of you might remember "Niliov" with his long posts and relentless pursuit of theory happiness...

I think I'll start reading up on new subjects here...and maybe posting again???!!!! (protesting is welcomed)

Best Wishes,
Niliov


   
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