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The complicated theory

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(@screaminside)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 32
Topic starter  

i am so tired ... every day i find new things about theory make me more confused and lose what i know and ....

from wikipidea about mettalica's songs enter sandman

the song modulates one whole tone, up to F#, and after the second chorus, Hammett plays a guitar solo with the main, pre-chorus, and chorus riffs in the background. Hammett makes use of the wah-wah pedal and a wide range of scales, including e minor pentatonic, b minor, f# minor, e minor, and the E dorian mode.

whats that ? :oops: :o :D :) .if this is true why the is music theory ?????
and how he knows that ??

another thing i used to use the basic chords only but now i started to learn other chords 7th ,ninth and other ..
i found that each chord has more than 20 shapes or less or more i dont know exactly for each chord and inversions for each chord i dont know how to know all of this ?
:note2: :note2: :note2: :note1: :oops:


   
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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

1. Guitarists tend to over-complicate music theory. So what you've got on Wikipedia just ain't true.

The song has verses in E minor and choruses in F# minor. The solo does the same thing:it's 24 measures long; the first 8 are in E minor, and then it modulates up a whole step to F# minor. In the first 7 bars the solo is in E pentatonic minor - every last note of it (the fourth measure is simply a descending E pentatonic minor scale!).

Then we come to the stuff where guitarists get lost in thinking about theory. Measure 8 is a transition, setting up the key change. As we move from Em to F#m, we're changing two notes in the key signature - the Cs and Gs are sharp in F#m, but natural in Em.

So think about the basic chords they're using in Em... Em and Am, right? But if we sharp the C note, Am becomes A major, and if we sharp the G note, Em becomes E major. And that's what he does in the solo there: measure 8 begins with two beats of an A major arpeggio, and ends with a double stop on E-G#, suggesting an E major chord - which is all he plays for the next six beats. Neither of these should be analyzed as scales - they're chords. And I'd pretty much guarantee that's what he was thinking, since he doesn't play a single note outside these two chords for the space of about ten beats.

Now we're in F# minor, and he does use a broader set of tones for the rest of the solo. Barely. For the next eight measures he uses F#-G-A-B-D-E - sharp eyes will see that's an E pentatonic minor with the F# note added to it. Adding the F# makes sense, since we've changed keys to F# minor. But while the riffs behind the solo have changed keys, the solo hasn't - he's really still in E minor, with every phrase ending on E (the i) or B (the V). So rather than thinking in complicated scales, he's thinking in simpler ones... and letting the harmony make it sound more complicated than it is.

He starts the last 8 measures of the solo with another A major arpeggio, through the entire 17th measure of the solo. A couple measures later is a descending run using E pentatonic minor with the added F# note. Then in the last four bars of the solo he's slowing down, coming to rest on E, then C#, then B, where it ends. The riffs go back to Em while he holds the B note, which is a chord tone in Em, giving it resolution.

So how do you get from something so simple to a complex explanation like Wikipedia's?

The scales Wikipedia says he uses are:

E minor pentatonic (E-G-A-B-D)
B minor (B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A-B for the natural minor)
F# minor (F#-G#-A-B-C#-D-E-F# for the natural minor)
E minor (E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E for the natural minor)
E dorian (E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D-E)

Notice that B minor, F# minor and E dorian all have a C# note in them. He uses C# in the solo exactly three times:

- the 8th measure, where C# is part of the A major arpeggio
- the 17th measure, where C# is part of the A major arpeggio
- the 22nd measure, where he's slowing down... that riff goes D-E-C#, and is not part of a run (nothing else happens for a couple beats before or after the C#)

So anybody saying he's in B minor, F# minor, or E dorian is just throwing names around. There's zero substance behind it.

2. Chords aren't about shapes, they're about notes. Any time you're playing a set of chord tones, you're playing that chord. So if you want Em7, that's E-G-B-D, and you can play that in all sorts of odd ways... 0-10-0-0-0-0 for instance. You probably won't find that in any chord books.

As you get better as a guitarist, you have to change the way you think about the fretboard. In the beginning we memorize chord shapes - open chords and basic barre chords. Most guitarists memorize only 20-30 chord shapes.

As you start adding more complicated stuff like 9ths, you want to start seeing them as basic chords with the addition of another note - a 9th chord is just a 7th chord with one extra note. (C9 is a C7 plus a D note). That lets you keep a small core of shapes in mind, and change them to get other chords. If you see C#m7b5 in a chart, you grab a m7 fingering, move it so C# is the root, and lower the fifth. You don't need to memorize the shape of it - but you do need to know where the C# notes are, and which note(s) in your fingering are the fifth.

The third stage is where you know what notes make up the chord, and you simply find them on the fretboard. At that point you're no longer working with shapes at all. Jazz guitarists may play thousands of different chord voicings, but they only 'know' the most common couple of dozen by rote - the others are created as needed. That's the point where theory becomes invaluable - if you know that C#m7b5 is C#-E-G-B you could just grab x-x-11-0-0-0. Or you could even see that the upper three notes (E-G-B) are an Em chord, and play that - letting the bass player finish the chord with C# :)

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@screaminside)
Trusted Member
Joined: 15 years ago
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Topic starter  

Mr noteboat ...
u analyzed the solo and it so simple now ..
i really appreciate your effort thank you
and what about chord i understand what you said
thank u :note1: :note2:


   
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(@steve-0)
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Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 1162
 

There's alot of talk on the internet about modes, for example:

http://www.stetina.com/lessons/modes.html
Metallica's "Sad But True" riff demonstrates the Locrian mode in action

While the riff does use both F and Bb which are notes in E Locrian (E F G A Bb C D), the riff begins with an E5 chord (E - B).

I've read alot of interviews with players like Steve Vai and Joe Satriani, they talk about practicing for hours when they started playing, dedicating a large portion of that time to just practicing scales and modes. While I think practicing scales is important, I think that applying your knowledge of scales properly to music is just as important (i.e - learning the A minor Pentatonic scale, then learning a blues solo in A minor), Whats the point of learning scales if you don't know how to use them?

I think this is why guitar players obsess about modes: they think that the key to learning how to solo is to learn as many scales as possible, but in reality there are alot of solos that are based off of one basic scale (i.e - blues, minor pentatonic, major scale, etc.) but the key is learning how to use the scale melodically (and harmonically, over chords).

That being said, I'm no expert and am far from mastering soloing. 8) Anyways, that's my two cents.

Steve-0


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Yeah, the riff can be thought of as Locrian. But he doesn't touch that in the solo - just the pentatonic, then a hexatonic scale.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@kingpatzer)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

The big problem with guitarists and modes is not that they needlessly complicate discussions of simple ideas -- which they do -- but that so many guitarists' knowledge of theory starts and ends with modes. The result is that every question is a nail, and "modes" is the hammer.

Most of the time there is a better, more simple principle at play that can be used to explain what's going on.

Not always, but very, very frequently.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@coolnama)
Prominent Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 590
 

So this should be called, ' The Complication of Theory'

Sorry couldn't resist, wow Noteboat didn't realize u liked Metallica :P.

I wanna be that guy that you wish you were ! ( i wish I were that guy)

You gotta set your sights high to get high!

Everyone is a teacher when you are looking to learn.

( wise stuff man! )

Its Kirby....


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Oh, I like all kinds of stuff. I'm not a huge Metallica fan - mostly because the musical ideas are so simple (a lot of their stuff sounds more complicated because they use a lot of layers in recording, but the ideas themselves are pretty easy).

But I'll teach whatever music students are interested in. So I end up doing a lot of classic rock, metal, country, blues, anything on Guitar Hero or Rock Band, and lots of Taylor Swift/Hannah Montana/Jonas Brothers. Today's lessons so far have covered Leyenda (a classical guitar piece), It Don't Mean a Thing (If it Ain't Got that Swing), 21 Guns, and something called Flight of the Foo Birds.

So I pretty much play anything - and I'm sure I've taught Enter Sandman at least 50 times.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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