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Transposition for other instruments

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(@steve-0)
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I was wondering, if I have a piece of music that is in C, and want to have a trumpet part played in the same key, how would I go about transposing for the trumpet since it's a different instrument key then a guitar (a guitar is in C and I think trumpet is Bb). I know how to do alot of transposition including moving a piece of music down or up a certain amount of pitches and changing keys but transposing for instruments confuses me since i would have to change something because the instrument is in a different key, but something has to be the same because it's in the same key.

Steve-0


   
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(@purple)
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If the trumpet is in Bb that means it plays a Bb whenever a C is written. I think that is how it goes anyway. So move the entire piece up a whole step for the trumpet and that should take care of it.

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(@noteboat)
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That's exactly how it goes. If an instrument is 'in the key of x', whenever C is written, x comes out. So Bb instruments get written a major second higher, Eb instruments get written a major sixth higher.

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(@alex_)
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Or you can use trumpets tuned into C.. like i do to cheat :D


   
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(@ricochet)
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NoteBoat, what's the historical origin of these transposing instruments? Always seemed like a really stupid idea to me. They must surely have had a seemingly logical reason, though...

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(@rip-this-joint)
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What does it mean to say guitar is in the key of C? If anything thought it would be E.


   
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(@ricochet)
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Well, no, if you see a C on the music you play a C on the guitar. If it were a transposing instrument in the key of E, you'd get an E when you saw a C on the music and played the note on the instrument that goes with it. Like I said, it really sounds stupid.

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(@danlasley)
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What we usually do is use a capo so that the sax can play the written melody and the guitar can play the written chords.

For example, Summertime is usually played in Am which would be F#m on the alto sax. But with a capo on 3, we both play in Am. Works great!

-Laz


   
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(@noteboat)
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Historically, horns were made in different keys - this is in the days before valves. A horn will naturally produce tones in the harmonic series, so with a horn in C, you could play C-G-C-E-G-Bb-C etc. A horn player needed a bunch of different instruments.

When valves came into being, horn players didn't need a dozen horns anymore - two or three might do the job. But now there was a fingering issue - you could play the note F on either an F horn or a Bb horn, but you'd need to press different keys depending on the horn you had. It was simpler to teach one fingering for each note on the page, and just write at the top which horn to use.

That utility continues - the fingering on a Bb sax and an Eb sax will be identical for a written note - the music transposes the pitch for the player, and the note really represents a fingering.

I understand it's hard for horn players with perfect pitch - they end up transposing it in their head anyway, so their ears will match the pitch

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(@ricochet)
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OK, thanks!

"A cheerful heart is good medicine."


   
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(@steve-0)
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Okay, just to make sure I have this correctly, when a key is in C major and I'm playing a song on guitar in C major , A trumpet would play in Bb and a saxophone would play in Eb (or at least a Eb saxophone would). So then for any sort of transposition from one instrument to another you would take the one key and compare it to the other and use that interval to change it. So if you want to take guitar music and change it into something for trumpet you would transpose it down a major 2nd or up a minor 7th.

Just out of curiousity, Are there only C, Bb and Eb instruments?

Steve-0


   
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(@paul-donnelly)
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French horns are usually in F, often with a thumb key to switch to Bb tubing.

EDIT: Here's another fun horn fact: horn players often see music in keys other than F, and have to transpose in their heads.


   
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(@noteboat)
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Those three are the most common, except for the French horn - that's in F, but 'double horns' have a key that will alter the length of the tubing (through a valve) and make the horn in Bb. Horn players, because of this valve arrangement, are used to transposing from other keys, including concert pitch.

All the brass horn players can also get 'crooks' which insert between the horn and the mouthpiece - these lengthen the tubing, so they change the key. As a rule of thumb, you can go to four flats or sharps by crooks - so a trumpet in C could play parts for trumpet in Ab, A, Bb, D, Eb, E, F or G if they have the right hardware.

Other keys: clarinets come in Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb, and E... basset horns are in F... and saxophones, although normally in Bb or Eb, also come in F - you rarely see those, except for the sopranino (come to think of it, you rarely see that!).

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(@purple)
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Okay, just to make sure I have this correctly, when a key is in C major and I'm playing a song on guitar in C major , A trumpet would play in Bb and a saxophone would play in Eb (or at least a Eb saxophone would). So then for any sort of transposition from one instrument to another you would take the one key and compare it to the other and use that interval to change it. So if you want to take guitar music and change it into something for trumpet you would transpose it down a major 2nd or up a minor 7th.
No, this is pretty confusing, though. The trumpet will play a Bb when C is written. So if you want the trumpet to play an actual C, it has to play a D. If a song is in C major which means your guitar is playing in C major, the trumpet's music will be written in D major. The trumpet will play a 2 half steps below the note written (a minor 7th?). ( I learned this through observation actually. When I was in band in high school, the flute is a C instruemnt and would play a Bb scale while the trumpets and Bb clarinets would play a C scale but we'd be playing the same notes. Took me a little bit to realize why that worked.) For a piece in C major, I think an Eb saxophone's music would be written in A major.

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(@ricochet)
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Man, I still think that's weird! :shock:

"A cheerful heart is good medicine."


   
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