Skip to content
Triad's things more...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Triad's things more then just aug,dim,maj,min?

13 Posts
8 Users
0 Reactions
3,624 Views
(@megalomaniac)
Trusted Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 48
Topic starter  

okay so,
for my jazz band for school, i've got to know several different triad's so far i've memorized the basics major, minor, diminished, and augmented. now i'm supposed to learn different triad's as 7th's 9th's 11th's and 13th's but how would i go about this? since well for example to create a 9th you would need the root, 3rd 5th 7th and 9th to full create that chord but that wouldnt be a triad?
now i'm a bit confused because i've heard different things from multiple sources, some say it's not possible and to play it as a 4 note chord adding the 9th or whatever to the major/minor, some of my sheet music has the notes to play for these triad's as say 7b 3 13 degree's of scale to create an inverted thirteenth or some alteration to create the other chords, i've asked my band teacher what he want's and he's said that he wanted the root, 3rd and (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, whatever ) which only makes me slightly more confused!

now hopefully that ramble is understandable,
but i would like to hear what you guy's have got to say?
my band music says one thing and my teacher another,

now if anything i still want to keep it as a triad if i could whatever the solution is,
but i've got to keep in mind that i need to figure out the main ''flavor's'' for how i construct this triad as something such as the piano or some other accompanying instrument is going to play so it'll sound more or less full?


   
Quote
(@viper)
Eminent Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 38
 

Alright, I'll take a shot. Don't blame if it's wrong though.
Now, what a triad is is a 1st, a third and a fifth. You know that in some special cases that they change (IE. major to minor, aug dim etc.) But you still have that three note core. When you add another interval like a 13th or 7th or 9th, you extend on the original triad. It's still a triad because depending on what type of 13th or whatever it still has a major, minor, aug or dim triad at the core. Now, there are some optional notes to these extended triads, but you'll have to excuse me because I don't know which ones are.
The magical thing about the guitar that other instruments such as the piano don't have is the ability to play rich chords by adding optional notes to a chord. Your teacher only said the 1st, 3rd and the extended note, right? Well just use the notes he gave to you make chords for an accompanying instrument to play.

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, You probably have much more experience than I do when it comes to theory. I've never been in band =/

Ibanez RG3EXFM1


   
ReplyQuote
(@hbriem)
Honorable Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 646
 

Viper is right in that triads only contain the 1, 3 and 5. Thus there are only 4 kinds of triads (maj, min, dim, aug).

7ths, 9ths and so on have 4 or more notes and thus are not triads.

Even if you leave out an inessential note like the 5th and only play the 1, 3 and 7, it's not a triad, whatever your teacher calls it.

However, here's a table of how to form the various chords:
Chord Notes(degree) Notes(C root)
---------------------------------------------------
major 1 3 5 C E G
6 1 3 5 6 C E G A
7 (dom7) 1 3 5 b7 C E G Bb
maj7 (M7) 1 3 5 7 C E G B
9 1 3 5 b7 9 C E G Bb D
maj9 (M9) 1 3 5 7 9 C E G B D
11 1 3 5 b7 (9) 11 C E G Bb F # extremely rare
maj11 1 3 5 7 (9) 11 C E G B F # extremely rare
add11 1 3 5 11 C E G F
13 1 3 5 b7 (9 11) 13 C E G Bb A
add9 1 3 5 9 C E G D
sus2 (2) 1 2 5 C D G
sus4 (sus) 1 4 5 C F G
sus#4 1 #4 5 C F# G
sus7 1 4 5 b7 C F G Bb
5 1 5 C G
aug 1 3 #5 C Eb G#
6/9 1 3 5 6 9 C E G A D
minor (m) 1 b3 5 C Eb G
min7 (m7) 1 b3 5 b7 C Eb G Bb
min9 (m9) 1 b3 5 b7 9 C Eb G Bb D
min11 1 b3 5 b7 (9) 11 C Eb G Bb F
minmaj7 1 b3 5 7 C Eb G B
dim (°) 1 b3 b5 C Eb Gb
dim7 1 b3 b5 bb7 C Eb Gb A
min7b5 1 b3 b5 b7 C Eb Gb Bb

--
Helgi Briem
hbriem AT gmail DOT com


   
ReplyQuote
(@megalomaniac)
Trusted Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 48
Topic starter  

okay so replying to viper's comment, you're right with the whole major, minor, aug or dim always being at the core of the chord, and it extending beyond that basic chord to reach a 7th, 9th whatever but i'm still questioning what to do.
as for hbriem, i dont think that's right, i agree with the whole thing about there only can be four types of triads,
but a triad is a cluster of three notes so i think whatever the degree's that you choose it could potentially be whatever chord it is meant to be but it definatly wont sound full or complete. keep in mind that i'm accompanying several different instrument's that will play apart of the chord that i dont play. now in my jazz band, i dont want to use full blown 4,5 or 6 note chords because it's too many notes to play all at once and it'll just mush into the other sounds

how would you say i go about this? i'm not really looking for the correct theory here i guess, but rather what are the more important degree's of scale i should use to accompany the band i play in that are three note chords?
not the whole chord but the part's i could play of the chord to add an extra little flavor to what they're already playing?

again hopefully that made sense, and thanks for that chart of the chords


   
ReplyQuote
(@viper)
Eminent Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 38
 

Try cutting out degrees of a chord and see which combination sounds the best is the only suggestion I can give.

Ibanez RG3EXFM1


   
ReplyQuote
(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Well, there are chords, and there are "chords".

Chords are the skeleton of a harmony, and they outline a piece whether you're playing the notes or not. "Chords" (i.e. fingerings) are how you get there... the two can be different things, and many guitarists don't grasp that. They want a fingering to be Am/F when the chord is an Fmaj9 (just to give an example), because they can relate the fingering to an Am "shape", the bass note to a "slash", and don't understand how it can be a 9th when they aren't playing all the notes.

But I digress.

There are only the four types of triads in traditional harmony, because traditional harmony is tertian - chords are built in thirds. Since there are only two types of thirds (major and minor), you can have MM (augmented), Mm (major), mM (minor), and mm (diminished). If you're not using thirds, you can have a different set of three notes - like a "sus" chord, a tone cluster, or whatever... but they're not triads in tertian harmony.

As to the most important notes, that depends on the chord. Some combinations of notes define a sound, others merely support it. For example, fifths aren't important - play an open C7 chord. Now find the fifth in it - chances are good you didn't play one!

The important notes will depend on the type of chord. For chords larger than a triad, the "highest" note defines the chord - the only difference between Cmaj9 and Cmaj7 is the D note. (I have "highest" in quotes, because it doesn't have to be highest sounding note). If a chord has an altered tone, like a #5 or a b9, that's an important note. And if a chord has an internal dissonance, that's important.

So which ones to play depends on context more than anything else. Play this:

1 0
0 1
x x
x x
x x
x x

...and you'll hear G7-C. In the first pair, you're not even playing a G, but you're playing the B-F tritone that's contained in a G7 chord. And that tension wants to resolve to a C chord; what makes C sound like C (rather than C minor) is the third - by using C and E, you convey the idea.

So it's not an exact science - it's more of an art. The more you mess around with it, the better you get at it :)

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
ReplyQuote
(@scrybe)
Famed Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 2241
 

Noteboat's spot on, but to (hopefully) add a couple of points which will help you practically in your jazz band........

Leaving the 5th out, as suggested, is generally fine. You want the Root note and the 3rd in to 'signal' which chord it is. The 3rd will indicate whether its a minor chord or a major chord, but the 5th appears in both major and minor (Am and Amajor both have an E note as the 5th, but the 3rd, either C or Csharp, is changes when you go from Am to Amajor), so the 5th is not as important as the 3rd in signalling the harmony.

Another option, in a band setting, is to leave out the Root note (A in Am), since the bass player is generally holding this down for you. If you do this you can include the 5th note, playing A7 using the notes Csharp(major third), E(perfect 5th), G(dominant 7th), with the A note being played ont he bass. Or, if e.g. playing A9, you can leave out the root and the 5th and build a 'triad' from the 3rd, 7th and 9th. I put 'triad' in inverted commas since I just mean playing three notes simultaneously.

These are techniques often used in Jazz, e.g. in Jim Hall's playing he often drops the 5th or the Root but will included 'added notes' (7ths, 9ths, etc, etc). This is partly because it makes playing chord progressions easier, as some jazz music will have 4 chords or so to a bar. Also, when a chord is 'suggested' (i.e.if you don't play every note in A7) the audicence can 'hear' the missing notes (like the 5th) anyway. Again inverted commas - I mean the brain processes the information and sometimes fills the gaps based on previous music listening experiences.

If your band teacher tells you to play the chords differently to the score, I'd listen to him. If the score is, e.g. shop-bought, he might have created an arrangement for the piece which doesn't require you to play all the notes in the chords as they appear on the sheet music (and even if he wrote the score by hand, on practising it he might have changed his mind :wink: )

Ra Er Ga.

Ninjazz have SuperChops.

http://www.blipfoto.com/Scrybe


   
ReplyQuote
(@megalomaniac)
Trusted Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 48
Topic starter  

alright thanks!
thats exactly what i needed to hear


   
ReplyQuote
(@corbind)
Noble Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 1735
 

It seems in a band situation you would not want to muddy things up by playing all the notes of extended chords.

"Nothing...can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts."


   
ReplyQuote
(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

When playing in a true jazz band (one that is doing improvisation) you only want to stick to "safe" tones, which are the notes of the defined harmony and the notes of the melodic line. Leave everything else to who is ever doing the improvisation.

Thus, for example, if the lead sheet has the chord as a C7 and there's a D in the melody, you could play a C7, a C9, an Edim and a few other chords, but you need to stick to the tones: C, D, E, G and Bb for that beat, or you could seriously clash with the improviser.

Now, if you're playing in a band that is playing strict arrangements of traditional jazz tunes, then you play what the arrangement says to play, so if in that same context you're asked to play an F#, you play that F# and let the arranger worry about if it sounds right or not :)

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
ReplyQuote
(@megalomaniac)
Trusted Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 48
Topic starter  

When playing in a true jazz band (one that is doing improvisation) you only want to stick to "safe" tones, which are the notes of the defined harmony and the notes of the melodic line. Leave everything else to who is ever doing the improvisation.

Thus, for example, if the lead sheet has the chord as a C7 and there's a D in the melody, you could play a C7, a C9, an Edim and a few other chords, but you need to stick to the tones: C, D, E, G and Bb for that beat, or you could seriously clash with the improviser.

Now, if you're playing in a band that is playing strict arrangements of traditional jazz tunes, then you play what the arrangement says to play, so if in that same context you're asked to play an F#, you play that F# and let the arranger worry about if it sounds right or not :)

that was helpful,
now what originally brought this question on, was some of the sheet music i was given has things more then just aug, dim maj and min like 7th's 9th's 11'ths 13'ths and so forth
i dont really want to play the full out chord for these other chords as it will be too muddy i feel
how abouts should i go around this when playing with strict arrangements and such?


   
ReplyQuote
(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

If you're playing with a piano player or bass player or both you can usually omit the root or the 5 or both.
You can and should play the extension.
You can usually omit the 3 or the 7, but it's generally a good idea to not omit both.
Shoot for 2-4 notes, and chords that cover a lot of strings sound more "roomy" than chords using adjacent strings.

So, say you have a C13. Technically, the notes you have available are: C E G Bb F and A (some folks would say you could also include the 9th, but it generally is omitted).

You're playing with a bass player and a piano, so forget about C, E and G for now.

You want avoid it sounding too mushy so you want a big spread for you notes.

Maybe you'd choose to play A on the 6th string 5th fret, Bb on the 3rd string 3rd fret and F on the 2nd string 6th fret.

But, you might not like that fingering, and you might realize that the F is optional, being that the 9th is implied in a 13th chord anyway, so you might just play a Bb and an A. So maybe you just play the Bb on the 3rd string, 3rd fret and grab the A on the 1st string 5th fret.

And there you go, you've played a C13 using 2 notes.

Now let's say you're working with a bass player, but not a pianist. You can't drop the whole bottom chord in this case, as he's only going to be playing one note at a time. So you might decide that you should add the 3rd, and trust that he'll get either the root or the 5th, either of which will define the tonality of the chord. So you add an E into the mix, which you can include on the 2nd string 5th fret without much trouble at all.

But what if it's just you and a soloist. You're doing the chord comping. Now you need a root or a 5th in there as well. But the soloist can carry the melody, so drop the A. There's, a G is available on the 5th string, 5th fret, so you could play that without much problem. So now you'd play G, Bb and E.

Now, this sounds really complicated, but it's not. You just have to think about a few things: is the tonality covered, that's the root and the 5th; is the quality covered, that's the 3rd and the 7th; and is the melody covered, that's the extensions.

You can know if those things are covered by who you are playing with: bass players cover tonality; piano players cover tonality and quality; and soloists cover melody. Guitars can, like pianos, do it all, so your job is to not step on other player's toes -- that's when things go from sounding "full" to sounding "muddy."

Another big consideration in what you should play is how the chord tones flow from one chord to the next. As a simple example, play an F7 in first position and then a C7 in 8th position. Now that's a I-V progression, and it sounds Ok. Now play the F7 in 2nd inversion using the same C as that C7, then play the C7 in 8th position. See how much smoother that sounds? The voices move together more naturally.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
ReplyQuote
(@spides)
Estimable Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 157
 

Wow i love jazz.

Totally agree with kingpatzer and noteboat.

A great way to keep out of the way is try to pick voicings outside of the range of the other accompaniests as well.

If I'm playing with a piano, bass and soloist, i tend to use mostly higher chord voicings as piano covers middle chords, and bass covers low. That said pianos like to solo up high so if the keys go into a solo i switch back down to middle or lower voicings which just helps give a wider spread to the overall EQ and keep everyone out of each others way.

Im sure King will agree when i say chord vocab comes right into play with jazz, you gotta know where the chords are in relation to your position on the fretboard, but from the sounds of things you seem to be pretty much on top of it. Kudos for doing the jazz thing man, it aint easy but it is super rewarding coz you never stop learning.

Don't sweat it dude, just play!


   
ReplyQuote