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Trying To Understand Minor Scales...

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(@rjnix_0329)
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I am (finally) starting in on learning scales, having spent the last year learning and strumming chords. I am focusing mainly on full and pentatonic scales, and working on major and minors both. Major scales are easy enough for me, and it seems to just come down to practice at all positions. But when it comes to minors, I am having a bit of a problem. Everything I have read says that when playing scales (or soloing) over a minor key (say, Am) then you don't play the scale with a root note of A. You play the 6th as the root, or something along those lines, but at this point, I am not completely clear on what that means. What I am trying to figure out, is how you know which root note to use when playing over a minor chord progression. I have read some other posts, and I understand a lot of it, but I still don't quite understand which root I am supposed to use for a song in A minor. I appreciate detailed response (maybe I will learn something, even) but I would also really like a straightforward answer on just how to determine the root note.

Anyone wanna help me? Eh? :D


   
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(@voidious)
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Joined: 17 years ago
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A is the root of A minor, but the notes in A minor are the same as the notes in C major. A is the 6th of C major, so you could use the fingering of C major and start at the 6th (which is A). So they are probably just trying to get you to use the same major fingering or box shapes that you know already and use the "major 6th" as the root for the minor scale - because in a way, it is.

Saying "use the 6th as the root" seems kind of inelegant to me, though, I dunno. You could also say "play A major but with a flat 3rd, 6th, and 7th", and in fact that's what I was taught in a music theory class. Hope that helps. If not, there are lots of people who can give much better answers on these forums, so hopefully they'll chime in. ;) But since they hadn't yet, figured I'd try and help.

-- Voidious


   
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(@rjnix_0329)
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Okay, I think I am finally starting to understand. I got mixed up a bit between playing minor pentatonic over a minor progression and playing the same minor pentatonic of a major progression. Thank you for helping me clear that up a bit!


   
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(@kingpatzer)
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Joined: 19 years ago
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The natural minor scale has the same notes as a major scale a minor second above it.

So, natural Am has the same notes as C.

But, it's important to remember that unlike major scales where there is only one, there are 3 important minor scales -- the natural minor, the harmonic minor and the melodic minor.

Playing a natural minor scale should NOT be thought of as the same as playing the major scale starting on the 6th. Rather, you should think of a natural minor scale and key as their own entities.

A minor tonality has it's own set of listener expectations that differ from their expectations within a major tonality. So it's not just about the notes, but what you do with them in relationship to the harmony.

Minor tonalities typically tend to support a bit more dissonance than similar songs in major tonalities within any given genre.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@voidious)
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The natural minor scale has the same notes as a major scale a minor second above it.

Pretty sure kp means minor third. :oops:

:)

-- Voidious


   
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(@rjnix_0329)
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The natural minor scale has the same notes as a major scale a minor second above it.

So, natural Am has the same notes as C.

But, it's important to remember that unlike major scales where there is only one, there are 3 important minor scales -- the natural minor, the harmonic minor and the melodic minor.

Playing a natural minor scale should NOT be thought of as the same as playing the major scale starting on the 6th. Rather, you should think of a natural minor scale and key as their own entities.

A minor tonality has it's own set of listener expectations that differ from their expectations within a major tonality. So it's not just about the notes, but what you do with them in relationship to the harmony.

Minor tonalities typically tend to support a bit more dissonance than similar songs in major tonalities within any given genre.
I suppose that is what I get for going to the Musical Theory forum...*tear* I suppose the main thing is that I don't know what 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, Minor 2nd, Minor 3rd, I don't know what any of that means, or how to determine it. I have been learning music theory along with guitar...but I have been having too much fun playing music to get to that point, I suppose.


   
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(@noteboat)
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It's pretty simple, really.

Lay out a two octave scale, and number the notes:

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D- E- F- G- A- B- C

That tells you what the number part is... a 2nd interval is the root (1) and the second (2). A 9th is 1 & 9; an 11th chord is going to have 11 in it, and so on.

Then you've got the 'major' and 'minor' part. Those mean a couple different things...

If you're looking at a chord, 'major' means you're using the 3. If it's a 'major' 7th, you're also using 7. 'Minor' means you're using a lowered third (b3), and if you see 7 without a 'major', you're using the lowered 7th (b7)

If you're looking at an interval, here's what they mean:

Major = the upper note is in the scale of the lower, but not the other way around

Minor = the lower note is in the scale of the upper, but not the other way around

Perfect = both notes are in both scales

If you raise a major or perfect interval, you get an 'augmented' interval. If you lower a perfect or minor interval, you get a 'diminished' interval.

Major and minor in intervals are sort of mirror images - lower a major, you get a minor; raise a minor, you get a major.

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(@kingpatzer)
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The natural minor scale has the same notes as a major scale a minor second above it.

Pretty sure kp means minor third. :oops:

:)

Ok .. so I was still drinking my coffee ;)

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@rjnix_0329)
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So let me see if I understand this then...the 6th, in the key of C, is A? Is that correct? And the 7th is B? Sorry, I am just trying to make sure I am understanding this step by step. Thank you for being so patient!


   
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(@noteboat)
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Yes, that's right

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(@rjnix_0329)
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Alright, I am finally starting to get my head around this...but I still have my original question...if I am playing a scale over an Am key progression, can my starting note be an A note (5th fret on the 6th string)?


   
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(@noteboat)
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Yes, it can. That doesn't have to be your starting note, but there's nothing wrong with starting on the keynote.

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(@kingpatzer)
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Alright, I am finally starting to get my head around this...but I still have my original question...if I am playing a scale over an Am key progression, can my starting note be an A note (5th fret on the 6th string)?

Most people don't simply play a scale to solo. They might use a scale, but rarely do they just play the scale.

If you're playing over an Am progression, you can use one of the minor scales in A to help you select tones that are in the key.

One of those minor scales is the natural minor scale, which has the same notes as the C major scale.

It is not, however, merely a matter of just "starting" on A.

Again, a minor tonality has different expectations in the listeners than a major tonality. It's more than just what note you start on.

That said, the easy (but woefully incomplete) answer to your question is "Yes." If you play a C scale starting and ending on A, you are playing a natural minor scale in A.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@rjnix_0329)
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Oh yes, I realize that there is a lot more to it, but I am trying to figure out, mostly, what scales to go off of if I were to solo. At this point, I am just using scales to come up with some patterns I can use to improvise on, for the most part. The reason I ask, really, if because I had a friend (with incomplete knowledge of the guitar) trying to tell me things that didn't make sense, so I was trying to clear it up.


   
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(@dneck)
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get to know the sound of all three minor scales and then use the one that you need to make the sound you want to make at that particular moment. Youll start to just know that you want a natural 7th once you get used to using it.

"And above all, respond to all questions regarding a given song's tonal orientation in the following manner: Hell, it don't matter just kick it off!"
-Chris Thile


   
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