Skip to content
Using modes and exo...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Using modes and exotic scales

16 Posts
10 Users
0 Likes
4,578 Views
(@briank)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 122
Topic starter  

I hope this doesn't sound too stupid- I think I know a pretty decent amount of theory, but a question has been nagging at my mind. . .
With the most well-known scales (minor, major, etc) the resolving note is always the root note. For example, A minor resolves to A.
But I'm a big fan of modes and exotic scales, and they resolve to other notes within that scale, not the root. I know that the modes are just rearranged major/minor scales where the root note is not used to resolve tension- for example, I was messing around with the A Mixolydian scale and I realized it sounded (to me, the way I was using it) very major, and it resolved to D. Sure enough, after a little research, I realized that A Mixolydian and D Major contain the same notes.
So my question is- what is the "correct" way to finish a phrase using modes or exotic scales? I seem to be playing them in a way where I find the note that works good to end a musical phrase, and focus around that note. If I do that, doesn't it really mean that I'm just using the mode pattern as another way to play a minor/major scale?
I hope that's understandable- should the root of a any scale or mode always be used to finish a musical phrase, regardless if it creates tension?

"All I see is draining me on my Plastic Fantastic Lover!"


   
Quote
(@steve-0)
Noble Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 1162
 

I think you just need to get used to the sound of modes, a good exercise would be playing parellel modes, for example: playing a c major scale and then playing a c mixolydian mode would give you an idea of how that mode works, you can do this with the c lydian scale as well. Then with the a minor scale you can compare it with the a phygrian scale and then the dorian and even the locrian.

Steve-0


   
ReplyQuote
(@anonymous)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 8184
 

well, i don't always end phrases on the root note, but...

you should try to make it so that any tension wants to resolve to the root of the mode, other wise you're just playing major scales and calling it a different name.


   
ReplyQuote
(@briank)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 122
Topic starter  

you should try to make it so that any tension wants to resolve to the root of the mode, other wise you're just playing major scales and calling it a different name.

So in other words, a solo using a mode (or scale without a resolving root note) should probably start with the musician establishing the idea that the root note is the ending note?
So, in essence, modes are the opposite of "regular" scales in that you are trying to leave tension at the end of a phrase?
If that is true, then I might have to avoid regular scales for a few days to get a feel for that type of playing :twisted: 8) So this is why most people seem to prefer avoiding modes. . .

"All I see is draining me on my Plastic Fantastic Lover!"


   
ReplyQuote
(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

The root note of a scale is the root note because it's the tonal center.

As you've found, A Mixolydian and D major have the same notes. What makes them different is the tonal centers - nothing else. The same is true of G Lydian, C# Phrygian, etc... they all have the same tones.

The tonal center doesn't have to be where you start or land phrases, and it doesn't even have to be the note that's used most often... although each of these can help define the tonal center. The concept of a tonal center is a bit more nebulous - for any 'rule' you can come up with, I can write a melody that violates it, but keeps the tonal center (it seems to me I did just that a year or so ago in another thread here!)

Steve-o's suggestion is an excellent one, and it's how I teach the use of modes. You've already got a phrase that centers in D... it sounds major to your ear, and landing it on D resolves it.

So write out the phrases you're using. Look for the C sharp notes. Change them to C natural notes, and play it again with those - now you'll be in D Mixolydian.

It's really hard to work with a collection of notes and say 'this is what I'm going to use as my tonal center'. Not that it can't be done - but when people say that, they rarely pull it off, unless they've got a really good idea of where they're going with the melody, and how they'll get there.

On the other hand, if you say "I'm going to center this on D" and build a collection of notes around that, it's pretty easy. You're starting with D in mind, not the whole set of notes in a scale. Now you can think in D, and make alterations as needed - C natural for mixolydian, G# for Lydian, etc. Whether you choose to end your phrases on D or A or any other note becomes almost beside the point... you'll be shaping it in D-something, and the choice of accidentals will determine what that something is :)

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
ReplyQuote
(@321barf)
Estimable Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 133
 

what is the "correct" way to finish a phrase using modes or exotic scales? I seem to be playing them in a way where I find the note that works good to end a musical phrase, and focus around that note. If I do that, doesn't it really mean that I'm just using the mode pattern as another way to play a minor/major scale?
I hope that's understandable- should the root of a any scale or mode always be used to finish a musical phrase, regardless if it creates tension?
I agree with steve-o and Noteboat about the parallel modes.

Like Noteboat Said:
"Whether you choose to end your phrases on D or A or any other note becomes almost beside the point... you'll be shaping it in D-something, and the choice of accidentals will determine what that something is"

okay back to my input...

To me it's sort of a feel thing that happens as you are playing,noodling,improvising and most importantly LISTENING.In practice while doing this you'll be thinking to yourself "do I want to go this way or do I want to go that way", and you sort of have to try both, and just listen to see which one sounds best.So you sort of have to hunt and peck at first.But after many years of this you'll be able to just intuitively go to what sounds best to you just by feel, and from those experiences of sort of hunting and pecking for it you'll have developed a sort of intuition for it and just instictively make your choices on the fly without much thought or without having to stop and think about it.


   
ReplyQuote
(@steve-0)
Noble Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 1162
 

What I think would also help is to listen to some songs that are based on these modes: I'm almost positive that the main riff in the song "Wherever I may roam" by Metallica is in E Phygrian, if not the entire song.

If I remember correctly, the song "The Last Stop" by Dave Matthews sounds like it's played in a phygrian dominant mode (fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale).

I've gotten to the point of where I'm able to write riffs that are based on modes, and not just major or minor scales... I haven't gotten to the point of actually soloing or improvising with modes, and i'm not really into jazz so i haven't seen many people use modes in rock soloing but it might be something i'd try after getting a bit better at pentatonic, minor and major key soloing.

Steve-0


   
ReplyQuote
(@alangreen)
Member
Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 5342
 

I think you just need to get used to the sound of modes, a good exercise would be playing parellel modes, for example: playing a c major scale and then playing a c mixolydian mode would give you an idea of how that mode works, you can do this with the c lydian scale as well. Then with the a minor scale you can compare it with the a phygrian scale and then the dorian and even the locrian.

Don't forget, though, that when you're using the C myxolydian, you're playing in F, not C, and when you use the C lydian, you're playing in G.

Best,

A :-)

"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk


   
ReplyQuote
(@dsparling)
Reputable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 289
 

The root note of a scale is the root note because it's the tonal center.

Steve-o's suggestion is an excellent one, and it's how I teach the use of modes. You've already got a phrase that centers in D... it sounds major to your ear, and landing it on D resolves it.

So write out the phrases you're using. Look for the C sharp notes. Change them to C natural notes, and play it again with those - now you'll be in D Mixolydian.

When I played in university jazz band, we started our rehearsal each day by doing scales in a similar fashion (with a jazz feel)...say, start with C major, then lower the 7th (to Bb), which would be C mixolydian, then lower the third (to Eb), which is C dorian.

CDEFGABC CBAGFEDC (major)
CDEFGABbC CBbAGFEDC (dorian)
CDEbFGABbC CBbAGFEbDC (mix)

Think we might have played arpeggios (up to the 9th) that way too...

CEGBDBGE C
CEGBbDBbGE C
CEbGBbDBbGEb C

And of course we went through all twelve keys...

http://www.dougsparling.com/
http://www.300monks.com/store/products.php?cat=59
http://www.myspace.com/dougsparling
https://www.guitarnoise.com/author/dougsparling/


   
ReplyQuote
(@shadychar)
Trusted Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 41
 

I think you just need to get used to the sound of modes, a good exercise would be playing parellel modes, for example: playing a c major scale and then playing a c mixolydian mode would give you an idea of how that mode works, you can do this with the c lydian scale as well. Then with the a minor scale you can compare it with the a phygrian scale and then the dorian and even the locrian.

Don't forget, though, that when you're using the C myxolydian, you're playing in F, not C, and when you use the C lydian, you're playing in G.

Best,

A :-)No, when you're playing in C mixolydian you're playing in C mixolydian. Remember, modes exist independant of the major/minor scale key system, the mode doesn't have to correspond to a particular major scale. You can play notes "C D E F G A Bb" in a variety of different configurations, but what determines what you're playing is where you set the tonal center the harmony you have under your melody. Playing in C mixolydian is NOT playing in F major, even if those scales share the same notes.


   
ReplyQuote
(@briank)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 122
Topic starter  

Whoa, some of you are getting a little too deep. . . .
After trying some of the ideas, I think one thing that seems pretty easy to do is use a scale pattern that I already know- for instance, A minor or A minor pentatonic on the fifth fret- and ending phrases on notes other then A. I'm also trying to play faster by throwing in chromatic runs everyonce in a while.
I think I understood BP's reply the most. Whenever I'm playing with someone, they play a chord progression in a given key- say A- and they'll play the A, D, and E chords. I will just play in A. Should I try to change keys with the rhythm chord I'm playing with? And what other "hip scales" (it would be awesome if you're talking psychedelic/raga/trippy :)) can I play with, out of curiosity? 8)

"All I see is draining me on my Plastic Fantastic Lover!"


   
ReplyQuote
(@steve-0)
Noble Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 1162
 

You could change scales with the chords, but there's nothing wrong with staying with one scale. An easier way to solo while outlining chords would be to play an A minor pentatonic and then play either an E, G# or B over the E and then play a D, F# or A over the D (you could play several of these notes over the chord) the point is that chord tones are really overlooked but very useful.

Steve-0


   
ReplyQuote
(@alex_)
Honorable Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 608
 

The same is true of G Lydian, C# Phrygian, etc... they all have the same tones.

i take it you meant Locrian??

you had me confused for a few mins then, and i was confused, BECAUSE i was confused lol.


   
ReplyQuote
(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

LOL yep, sorry Alex - G Locrian or D Lydian

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
ReplyQuote
(@alex_)
Honorable Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 608
 

lol is that another joke??

It went from

G Lydian - C# Phrygian...

and i said dont you mean Locrian, and you said yes..
So that means G Lydian and C# Locrian..

*****************

then you say G Locrian (when it was lydian), pull a D out of your bag of notes and say Lydian? which arent related in the same scale either

G Locrian (Ab major)
D Lydian (A major)

(goes for some fresh air to clear his head), lol!


   
ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 2