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writing harmonies?

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(@ibummaiden)
Eminent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 26
Topic starter  

hi, Im trying to write harmonies in thirds for a guitar part.

I can't seem to make it work. we've checked the guitars are in tune with each other, & Ive tried placing the notes both a 3rd above & a 3rd below the main meldoy line, but it still sounds unmusical with both guitars playing.

if the first guitar is playing this (for example)

e|----------------------------|
b|----------------------------|
g|---------------10h--12----|
d|---10h--12----------------|
a|----------------------------|
e|----------------------------|

then the next guitar should play this, right?

e|----------------------------|
b|----------------------------|
g|--------------14h--15-----|
d|---14h-15-----------------|
a|----------------------------|
e|----------------------------|

if the first note is a C, the next guitar should play an E ( E being a 3rd below C, right? [c,d,e])

Ive also tried harmonising in the opposite direction (where if the first notes a C, the harmony note is an A)
but nothing seems to work, could someone show me how to do this properly?


   
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(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

The first guitar is playing C-D-F-G

The second guitar is playing E-F-A-Bb

C-E is a major 3rd
D-F is a minor 3rd
F-A is a major 3rd
G-Bb is a minor 3rd

That works but is going to sound a bit odd because G in the key of C is usually major.
You probably want:

e|----------------------------|
b|----------------------------|
g|--------------14h--16-----|
d|---14h-15-----------------|
a|----------------------------|
e|----------------------------|

for the second guitar.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@ibummaiden)
Eminent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 26
Topic starter  

is this sounding dissonant because Im using major & minor thirds?

This porbably seems stupid, but I didnt know you got major AND minor thirds, I assumed a htird was just a third. how do I tell the difference?


   
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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

You have the right idea... but the two parts need to be in the same key.

You have guitar 1 playing notes C-D-F-G

At the same time guitar 2 is playing E-F-A-Bb

That's correct in the key of F (F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F), but if you're in the key of C you'll need to change that Bb note to B.

So guitar 2 will look like this:

e|----------------------------|
b|----------------------------|
g|--------------14h--16-----|
d|---14h-15-----------------|
a|----------------------------|
e|----------------------------|

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

I should have clarified that I was assuming the key of C due to you starting on C and ending on G.

Sorry if that cuased any confusion.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Seems like my earlier post was delayed a long time :)

Major thirds are four-frets worth, minor thirds are three frets worth (just to put a size on things)

Harmonizing a scale means using both major and minor thirds, depending on what the 'in key' note is - usually that's the lower voice, and the harmony part is higher.

Starting with your key note, you get MmmMMmm with M=Major and m=minor. So if you're in C, C is the first note... build an M. If you're in C, but building from D or E (the second/third notes) it's m... back to M for the fourth/fifth, and m once again for the sixth/seventh

It helps if you know the note names and scale spellings.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5349
 

You have the following possible intervals. Lets take C as starting point:

C-C=unison
C-Db=minor 2nd
C-D=major 2nd
C-Eb=minor third
C-E=major third
C-F=(Perfect) fourth
C-Gb=Tritone
C-G=Perfect Fifth
C-Ab=minor sixth
C-A=major fifth
C-bb=minor seventh
C-B=major seventh
C-C2=octave

Notice how minor/major third decides the chord: C-E-G (using a major third) is C-major, C-Eb-G (using a minor third) is Cm.

So lets look at what you're playing and see if we can make a chord progression of it by adding a third line:
C-D-F-G
E-F-A-Bb
----------
G-A-C-D

That gets you the following chords C, Dm, F, Gm. Each chord fits nicely in the key of C except the Gm: there is no Bb in C but there is a B. That gives us a C, Dm, F, G progression, or: I-ii-IV-V. Not that exciting but it sure sounds solid. This will all change it you don't play in C but it makes it easier in this example.


   
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(@ibummaiden)
Eminent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 26
Topic starter  

OK. I think Im understanding.

The actual song is in C.

so, if guitar one goes C, D, A G

guitar 2 (harmony) goes E, F, G#, B ?

This is using the MmmMMmm formula, (I think)


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5349
 

IU wouldn't play an A and G# together...


   
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(@ibummaiden)
Eminent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 26
Topic starter  

sorry man, it was meant to be an F on the first guitar & a G# on the second. I tried editing the post, but my computer buggered


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5349
 

Well, that G# is a tricky note if you play in C-major. Not that it is forbidden but you might want to include only diatonic intervals (if that's proper English :D). So if you're first guitar is C-D-F-G the 2nd guitar would be very nice if you'd change the G# into an A (change the minor third into a major third interval).

The F-A combination could work well because it is a third interval (which you are after it seems), both notes are in C and you can form a number of different chords that would fit well with what you have already. Note that your G# is a surprising note, not a *wrong* note per se.


   
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(@ibummaiden)
Eminent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 26
Topic starter  

Im kinda lost. Im not sure what you mean by diatonic. (I dont really know much about theory :oops: , Im doing my best to pick it up as I go along)


   
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(@ibummaiden)
Eminent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 26
Topic starter  

Im kinda lost. Im not sure what you mean by diatonic. (I dont really know much about theory :oops: , Im doing my best to pick it up as I go along)


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5349
 

Sorry, diatonic basically means (and if you're lucky some of the wiser folks with seperate myth and fact here!) 'from within a major/minor scale'. So if you play in C diatonic intervals/chords are intervals/chords using only notes from the C-major scale: C D E F G A B. The G# note is not in it so it is more likely to bring problems with it.

In other words: make it easy on yourself and only use the notes from C-major for now. So you can change the G# to either an A or G. The first option resulting in a major third interval (F-A) the latter in a major second (F-G). I'd go with the major third here, but there is no real right or wrong in music so do what you feel is best.


   
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(@ibummaiden)
Eminent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 26
Topic starter  

ah right, thanks for clearing that up, I see what you mean now.

a little off topic, but are chord progressions diatonic as well.

( so if a scale goes ABCD, for example, you could use, A, B C & D chords as a progression)

for a chord progression in D only be able to use chords whose root notes were from the D major scale?


   
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