Roll Over Beethoven

Here's my last set of uncertainties. Do have a look at the previous page (the system doesn't allow for long postings and my other requests are there).

Consider this table (every line shows the notes for a chord in the progression)
     I     V    VI    bVII
I     D    A     B       C
IV    G    D     E       F
V     A    E     F#      G

The series of notes thus involved is:  
         D-E-F-F#-G   -A   -B-C.  
Whereas  
DMajor is D-E-  F#-G   -A   -B  -C#
DMajP  is D-E  -F#-    -A   -B
Dmin   is D-E-F   -G   -A-Bb  -C
DminP  is D  -F   -G   -A-    -C
DBlues is D  -F   -G-G#-A-    -C

What is that resulting series of notes?  Its main difference with DMajor is the additional use of b3 and replacing 7th with b7th.
DMajP as a subset of DMaj doesn't use any kind of 7ths.

The main difference with Dmin is the additional use of natural 3rd, replacing b6 (in the minor scale) with 6  and  replacing b7th (minor) with 7th. DminP is a subset of Dmin, the main additional difference being not using the 2 nor b6 (only present in the minor, not in our resulting scale). DBlues adds G# or the tritone, which I also expected to be more dissonant.

Is there a way I can feel (instead of just writing about it)what the "scale" gets from playing those other standard scales over it?

On the other hand, if we take the chord progression I-IV-V (and the notes involved in the shuffle at each degree), and we compare the notes on each scale and those in the shuffle,

DMaj Pent  
I) matches I, V and VI notes on the 1st chord but leaves b7th unmatched  
IV) leaves I and bVII notes unmatched in shuffle of 4th chord
V) leaves b7th unmatched during 5th chord

Dmin Pent
I)uses VI instead of bVI during I chord
IV)matches all notes of IV chord except the 2nd
V)leaves 2nd and 3rd notes of the shuffle (V and VI relative to "A" or V) unmatched.

DBlues
The tritone (G#) doesn't appear in the shuffle.
I expected it to be worse sounding.

I would really appreciate comments on all of these,
even if it's just to say I'm getting nowhere trying these reasonings.

Yes, I think you can always choose either the major scale or the relative minor.  Choosing the minor should give you a bluesier feel.  

There, that's one of your questions I feel competent to answer, even if my answer's wrong.

And the pentatonic scales fit into the major scales and modes, which, I think, is essentially why what you're playing around with works.

I don't really have enough grounding, I think, to try to risk a more articulate or detailed answer.  But, I suspect, I'm simply confirming what you already know.

Hi, everyone.

Thanks for answering.
I know I posed a lot of questions -distributed in my last fews postings because they don't fit into one.
But they're plugging me. David and Musenfreund just answered two or three questions (thanks). It's not that I want you to think I have a convoluted personality or anything: I've been playing this song for quite a while  (since I first read the lesson in April/May).

So long ago actually that I forgot that David's version is in the key of C, not in D as the Beatles' cover and Chuck Berry's original. But that's not really relevant.

I'm trying to learn what's behind the way those scales and chords of different origin intertwine and when this is obviously happening.
I'm learning the shuffle and the soloes over "The Beatles' Complete Scores" and another C.Berry songbook. I don't think it will take more than a couple of weeks to be able to play and sing the song acceptably (I can already play and sing as per David's lesson).

But honestly, unless I get the answer to my questions I'll remain a parrot. I'll be just repeating something I learnt by heart. I won't be able to use any knowledge in my own stuff.

Worse than that, I need somebody to refute my belief that if you can't answer this questions, you're in more or less the same position.

Please don't get annoyed by any of this.

There's a lot unanswered. Check my four previous postings, if you're so kind. My questions are thoroughly formulated just before Musenfreund's answer from today:
What about turnarounds?
And the progression during the 4 last measures?
And all my questions on scales?

I know I am asking a lot from you, but why don't you copy at least one of my postings, delete what's unnecessary and add some comment to my requests.

I don't really think my local Dj would answer this. Neither Tchaikowski  nor  Ludwig van nor Lennon (nor George) are in position to answer. I very much doubt Chuck would give away his secrets.

That's why I come here and ask. Because I've seen more people here who can answer than anywhere else (in the planet?)

Thanks to all of you

Hi!

I didn't mean to upset anybody by what I said. I'm almost certain that anybody who plays the guitar past an intermediate level can answer my questions. That's all. But nobody answers.

I guess other more knowlegeable GN-members just think this is a beginners forum and there's nothing really interesting for them.

But the theory forum deals with this matters all the time.
There are four sets of questions and they are relatively independent.

Would it be OK if I post these questions in the other forums here?

Hi and sorry to bother!

I'm posting my questions in the theory forum.
If it doesn't work there I guess I'll have to wait until I find out by myself.
I promise to write something on ways to play the shuffle or use tab to explain how the Blues Scale interacts with the chord notes.

Until then, check the other thread if you are interested.
Here's a link to tab to the solo/s in the song
http://www.guitaretab.com/b/beatles/22945.htm

If you are going to play any kind of Chuck Berry tune, it is essential that you get that Rhythm ( that I like to call the"Chuck Berry "crank") down Pat.You want to play it funky like a garbage truck rolling down the road. You do this by using down and up strokes with the accent on the down strokes. Allmost in a stacatto like fashion.
I know this topic is REALLY old, but it's still a good lesson and on the site, so I hope it's ok to bring it back to the top.

My question is about how to strum this type of shuffle in a “Chuck Berry” or rock style(rock shuffle rhythm, straight eighth notes). I can play a basic blues shuffle, but I'm using all down strokes to get the “triplet feel.” The Chuck Berry style is a lot faster than I have been playing and it seems like a lot of work to play at tempo with all down strokes. I've tried using alternating up and down strokes but I can't really get the hang of the upstrokes. I tend to miss the upper string on the up swing.

The above poster uses alternating strokes but I've read elsewhere that some use only down strokes. Alternating stokes seem to be the logical choice, but I wanted to get some additional feedback. If it's just a matter of practice I'll keep at the alternating strokes, but if there's a better way I'd like to know that too.

Also, David, thanks for a great series of lessons. These pages have been a big part of my learning experience.

Regards,
George

I play it all downstrokes myself. Do you have a CD of either Berry's version, or, even better, the Beatles' version? It might help to listen to it. The strum is slightly different from what David's listed -- he's simplified it a bit. And their versions are in the key of "D" but it's still the I IV V shuffle pattern. So the chords are D G and A. But if you have either recording, try playing along with a bit just to practice the Berry rhythm. That should help.

I actually have both of those versions. I've listened more closely to the Chuck Berry version and to my newbie ear it sounds like some of it is alternating and some is all down. Unfortunately my skill level isn't high enough yet to prove anything to myself. Until then I'll keep practicing. I'll try both ways since altenating double stops is sure to be usefull somewhere, even if not right for this song.

Also, this may be old news, but the newest media player for Windos XP has a really nice feature for this kind of thing. It will allow you to slow a song down up to 50% of the original speed without changing the sound. This is similar to a phrase trainer. Like I said, this may be old, but it was helpful to me.

Thanks again.

Hey sorry for reviving a topic so long past dead, but I just got to Roll over Beethoven a few days ago and I was wondering if it's normal for this song to hurt so bad. I've been holding the fret with my thumb parralel to the neck, pointing away from the bottom, because it's the easiest way to do the reach, but it's a way I haven't had to hold the guitar before and I can't even get the song finished before it hurts to much in the wrist to keep going.

Anyway, I was wondering if ya'll think I should keep pursuing this until my hand strengthens, if it will, or try it differentally.
If it helps I have pretty long hands and really skinny wrists.

Thanks for the help. :D

Hi Saber and welcome to the musical madhouse!

Don't worry -- these topics are never dead -- they're always active.

You'll eventually get used to the stretch. What you're experiencing is typical. I wonder if you might find it easier to make the stretch though if you drop your thumb to the middle of the back of the neck with your thumb more or less perpendicular to the strings. That's what I typically do when I've got a big stretch to make.

The stretch is actually easy for me, I've got pretty long fingers, it's the thumb thats holding the fingers to the board, or where it conects to the wrist rather, that hurts alot. I've tried different possitions for the thumb without much result, but I'll keep at it.

hello all

I've tried the lesson a few times and even if I've no problem play the song on my classical guitar at 160 bpm with barre chords (well sometimes I play the C open but that's another history), I still find very difficult to play with the suggested four frets strecht (unless I use a capo on third fret and play it like an E shuffle). Of course my version mixing barre chords and open C chord does not sound so good as the two-strings shuffle...does anyone could please give me any suggestion to be able to play the suggested strecth?

thanks in advance

Matteo

Are you playing barre chords or the two note , two string "power" chords? If you play the power chords, you'll find the stretch easier and won't need to play an open C.

If you're having difficulty doing the shuffle with the F, C, and G chords in the positions David's using, move them up the neck. Play the C on frets and and 10 of the sixth and fifth strings, play the F on the same frets of the fifth and fourth strings and play the G also on the fifth and fourth strings but up at frets 10 and 12. Those positions will reduce the size of the stretch for the boogie.

hi all

I'd like to let you know that thanks to some suggestions I've realized that to play the shuffle you could keep all teh fingers down (index and ring when play the first couple of notes, index, ring and pinky with teh seocn one). That makes a lot of difference and I've almost learned to play it!

Cheers

Matteo

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