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(@gram99)
Estimable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 62
Topic starter  

Pareto's principle states that

80% of anything is usually contained in 20% of the total ie

80 % of pollution is created by 20 % of polluters
80 % of sales are usually created by 20 % of the sellers
80 % of the good songs are created by 20 % of the writers

well you get my drift

so how is it someone can post here and 200 people will read that post but only 5 or 6 will actually take the time to reply?
Something is out of whack here.
Two hundred reads should produce 20 % replies or in this example, forty.

c'mon all you lurkers, we need your input. No one is going to bite or are you content to just be the audience.

just wonderin

"Nothing happens until something moves."

Albert Einstein


   
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 geoo
(@geoo)
Famed Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2801
 

I think the thing that is more difficult that writing lyrics, is critiquing them. Everyone says they want an honest opinion but not everyone really does. I find it best to pick out all the good points first, and then offer suggestions on the parts that are not as good.

I've never really been active in this forum, mostly used the SSG, but now that I am back (for a while) I will try to make more of an effort to stop in. I actually enjoy reading lyrics

Jim

“The hardest thing in life is to know which bridge to cross and which to burn” - David Russell (Scottish classical Guitarist. b.1942)


   
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(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

so how is it someone can post here and 200 people will read that post but only 5 or 6 will actually take the time to reply?
Something is out of whack here.
Two hundred reads should produce 20 % replies or in this example, forty.

Ignoring any debate over what Pareto's principle actually says and if it is right to apply it to the population of the board(not all cases are idealized and without evidence there's no reason to assume they are, and the two numbers don't even need to add up to 100 -- as they measure different things, not all readers/posters are equal, the question of if there are multiple populations or a single population to count, etc.) The "problem" is that views on a post are not of necessity unique users.

One person may start reading a lyric at work on their lunch break. They think about it some; come back and read it again; get interrupted by a phone call; come back and read it again; start to write a post; decide they didn't like what they wrote; stop posting and think about the song some more; they go home from work and look at it again; post a reply; return to the post to view their reply; edit their reply; view it again.

1 reader has no generated 7-8 views in the scenerio above. (And just to prove it, I drove the views up from 6 when I posted this to 20 or so by hitting refresh).

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@embrace_the_darkness)
Honorable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 539
 

I do stop by and read lyrics now and then, as well as ost my own, and critique when I feel I have something to say.

I think part of the problem (if you want to call it that) is that, unless the person reading a lyric is a lyric-writer themselves, it can be hard to come up with anything beyond "I like it / I didnt like it" comments; and not many people would just post
I didn't like the lyrics, I don't know why. They just don't appeal to me
I liked it.

as those kinds of posts, while giving a slight ego-boost to the writer of the lyrics, are not actually of much use.

Also, quite often I find myself start to read a lyric and after the first verse/few lines, just think "Hmm, nah" and click the back button on my browser - it's a natural reaction to something on the Internet I think (if a webpage doesnt load quickly, what do you do? I bet most of us would click "back" and try the next link from the search engine resuts).

Another thing, I think that a lot of people who read lyrics probably don't feel like the should comment on them, thinking something like "I can't write / can't write well / haven't tried (etc.) so what right do I have to tell person X that I don't like what they have written / think I could suggest improvements?".
Until I started writing my own lyrics (and was happy with them myself), I certainly thought this when I read other's posts.

Of course, what I NOW realise is that contributions from people suggesting improvements / comments is what a writer needs to further the work they are doing.

So a message to the "lurkers" > we DO appreciate your comments, however small, and your opinions ARE valued! :D

Pete

ETD - Formerly "10141748 - Reincarnate"


   
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(@gram99)
Estimable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 62
Topic starter  

exactly
we need the input. I don't know how many times someone has replied to one of my posts and i've thought wow I didn't mean that at all or hmmmmmm that would work. my point is we need the feedback. no need to prejudge out response to a reply. what we think is irrelevant. what you think is.

second point
boy does having a good first line in your lyric matter or what; when there's no music to hear. great test of writing.
so cmon folks talk to us. we need all the help we can get to get better and better. it's the human condition.

"Nothing happens until something moves."

Albert Einstein


   
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(@causnorign)
Honorable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 554
 

I can't write a thing, so how could I possibly critique someone who does something I can't do? The worst song written is better than my ability.


   
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(@gosha34)
Active Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 7
 

I can't write a thing..... The worst song written is better than my ability.
This sounds very discouraging.
I don't remember where I read it, but someone said that anybody can write lyrics. So you can also, you just need to try. Your song may be worse than one or better than the other but it will be your song.
Think about number of things that you can do worse than somebody else does, but you still do those things not worrying too much that there is someone better at it. (Your job, for instance).
If you can tell a story to your friend, you surely can write that story down. And then you rewrite it hundreds of times untill it becomes a song. And it is not going to be the best song in a world (though it might), but if you practice more and more, you are going to write better and better. But you need to take courage and be persistent. Not all of the good songwriters can write a song on the fly, only some of them but people still write.

Gosha


   
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(@gram99)
Estimable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 62
Topic starter  

causnorign wrote:
I can't write a thing..... The worst song written is better than my ability.

of course you can

here's a start song written by four guys from liverpool

we all live in a yellow submarine
a yellow submarine
a yellow submarine

we all live in a yellow submarine
a yellow submarine
a yellow submarine

in the town where i was born
lived a man who sailed to sea

etc etc etc etc etc

i mean cmon

or how about "my lumps, my lumps they all want to hump my lumps"

:-0))))))))))))))

"Nothing happens until something moves."

Albert Einstein


   
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(@embrace_the_darkness)
Honorable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 539
 

I can't write a thing, so how could I possibly critique someone who does something I can't do? The worst song written is better than my ability.

I think that feedback from those who are non-writers is just useful (if not more so sometimes!) as it is you lot who make up the bulk of the target audience. Think about it.

Everyone listens to music, either at work, on the radio, in the car, on TV, at home, whatever. Most of the people who listen are not writers, yet they still know if they do or do not like a song, and usually with a reason too.

While it's undoubtably harder with just text and no music, you can still tell if the song "speaks" to you, you can often get the rythm from the ryming of the lyrics, and may even hear your own musical take on it when you read it.

I don't think that not being a songwriter means you can't critique something on some level - after all, who was the last film critic's review you read who was also a director/producer? :lol: :lol:

Pete

ETD - Formerly "10141748 - Reincarnate"


   
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(@barnabus-rox)
Famed Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2957
 

I have been active on many forums for along time now ..

And here is the secret ...

You want feed back ? You want to know if something you did is any good to other peoples ears ?

The answer is easy ..

PROVIDE FEED BACK
AND THOSE YOU PROVIDE FEED BACK TO
WILL THEN IN RETURN
PROVIDE FEED BACK TO YOU ...

You scartch my back and I will scratch yours is how 99.999999% of forum members in any forum utilise forums ..

Thats the truth as no member has to do it , only those who want to be active provide any feed back and don't care if no one offers feed back in return ..

Only last week I replied to one of my own posts which actually got people replying ..

Give before looking to recieve

Here is to you as good as you are
And here is to me as bad as I am
As good as you are and as bad as I am
I'm as good as you are as bad as I am


   
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(@gerry)
Honorable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 441
 

Spot on Trev it really should be all about show me yours and I'll show you mine LOL Imagine if everyone who posted a lyric or a song did three crits before doing so or even 2 or even 1.

How many post up their work of art and expect everyone to comment on it yet they clearly cannot be bothered to comment on anyone elses. I make a note of them and ignore them like the plaque as Trev said it really is about you scratch mine and I'll scratch yours.

As a general rule the ones who do the most reviews get the most, sure there are exceptions but the principle is a sound one.

By the way I am not suggesting for a moment that this is your case as from what I can see the GN is one of the most pro-active and friendliest sites around.

Just my thoughts on it,

Gerry

Those who can't dance always blame the band.

http://www.gerrycooper.com/


   
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(@coleclark)
Honorable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 417
 

barnubus is right, if soemone comments about my stuff somewhere i feel like reading there stuff and commenting and helping them out


   
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 Celt
(@celt)
Famed Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 2649
 

Gram,

Some very good points have been made here.

I agree strongly with Kingpatzer that the number of views does
not equal the number of viewers. I myself have come back to this
tread 6 or more times over the last few days always with the best
intentions of posting a reply. Somehow I always got interrupted.

Barabus also makes a very valid point about "you scratch my back
I'll scratch yours" People are just naturally more likely to respond
more to someone they have had contact with previously.

Thanks for bringing up the subject though. It's good to get it out there.

John

My SoundClick Page

Collaborations

" It's easier than waiting around to die" Townes Van Zandt


   
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(@vic-lewis-vl)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 10264
 

I have noticed this before, and it's a shame. I don't drop into this forum all that often - spend a lot more time in the SSG these days, although I've just had a break - hardly looked at it for the last couple of weeks. Sometimes you just need a rest, you know? But - when I am active in the SSG - I try and get something posted every week, even if it's not much good, as the whole point of that forum is to practise and hone one's songwriting. I also try to look at EVERY song and give my opinions - what I like, what I don't like, etc. No favourites.

I know, as a writer myself, how valuable feedback is. MANY a time on the SSG, I've posted lyrics and someone's pointed out that I've overused a word, or a line doesn't seem to fit, or even - as Bob once pointed out to me about one particular song - don't change the lyrics, change the order of the verses.

Some people tend to get more feedback than others - take for instance, Larry Jones (lwj001)....his songs don't seem to get much feedback at all. The guy's written over four and a half thousand songs - but he's still asking for feedback. Why don't his songs get that feedback? I dunno - they're good songs, well written. Not my particular cup of tea, a little-old fashioned for my taste, but they're a good read, and he obviously loves writing. Is it that the songs are so well written that you don't think they need any comments? If so, telll him - hell, we all like an ego boost now and then. Or is it that the particular genre he's cornered doesn't appeal? Try and look beyond the style, and look at the song.....does it read well? Do the words flow? Is the meter tight?

I know it's sometimes difficult to critique.....but maybe if we made more of an effort, it'd be worthwhile all round. Like Trev said, "you scratch my back"......and bless his little cotton socks, he's one of those who DO make the effort, and he always gives an honest opinion.

I'll try and look in more often. Promise!

:D :D :D

Vic

"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)


   
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