Do types of wood really affect an ELECTRIC guitar's tone?

YES!!!!

I mean, you can play a solid body electric without it being amplified right????
So it DOES have acoustic properties.
And they are VERY important qualities.

To me, a guitar with HB's has more of an electric sound.
With SC pups - you can hear the wood more.

I'm a Fender guy, and the sound of a Fender is GREATLY determined by it's tonewood combo.

Ash sounds different than alder.
A solid one piece body (Tele) sounds different than a 2 piece body (Strat).

The fretboard makes a HUGE difference.
Rosewood is warm and slow. Has brilliant note blooms and decays.
Maple is colder and faster with a faster decay and less bloom.

The finish maters a great deal - no finish or Nitro lacquer allows the body to vibrate more and makes it sound more alive.
Polyurethane smothers the vibrations and dampens the sound.

And the bridge matters alot.
On a Strat - the old style 50's bridge and stamped steel saddles give it more of a twang and are a bit louder than the new
2 point synchro ones with the offset aluminum saddles. (which were originally designed to de-twang the sound in the 80's)

The 3 Brass barrel saddles on a tele are the best sounding.

Etc....

So yes, the wood really does matter.

Ken

This was another question I had as well, it made sense that it would. I think it's interesting how something as simple as what wood is on what part can affect not just little things but big ones as well.

Yes, the woods affect solid body guitars' timbres. The sound of an electric starts with its acoustic characteristics, and even solid woods have resonant properties. There are reasons certain commonly available woods are seldom found in guitar -- even electric guitar -- construction. They are proven "tone suckers" (dead sounding) or lack the uniformity required to make consistently successful instruments. There are may reasons a Tele sounds different from a LP which sounds different from and SG. The scales and constructions are difffent are among these, but the materials is a biggy. And to put simply, one cannot simply swap the pups and make one sound like the other. In fact, many LPs and SGs have the same pups and ToM bridges and tailpieces and do not sound the same. Moreover, some LPs sound different than other LPs of the same construction and vintage. Same for Teles. Among the obvious variables are construction quality (this would be obvious -- can rule it out except in pathological cases), the woods (not always visually observable, but testable by 'tap test') and sometimes the pup winding -- esp if hand wound. I believe it is reasonably accepted among those who know these guitars, that some just had better woods going into the construction.

Guitar gurus (okay, maybe fanatics) also tell us the the finish (poly, nitro, thickness) will affect the tone of an electric. I'm a bit more skeptical here, as this seems like what we engineers would call a third-order effect. But then again ...

Veteran guitar players will always tell you to first judge an electric tone unplugged for this very reason. Stay away from an unplugged electric that does not sound good -- poor tonal balance, dead spots, undesirable ADSR characteristics. It's a stretch to believe that a guitar that sounds like absolute crap acoustically will become magically better with the right pup. A pup is basically a transducer and filter. It can only do so much. I think the GIGO rule applies here.

LOL -

I'm a firm believer in finish effecting tone.
I have two Strats - one with a Lacquer finish and one with a Polyurethane finish.
The Lacquer one is way more vibrant and acoustically louder - wich translates to a louder more vibrant and alive
amplified sound.

I mean strings vibrate right????
If I leave them bare they vibrate more than if I coat them in a catalized hard plastic coating right????
If I put a more forgiving Nitro Lacquer finish on them they vibrate better than being encased in hard plastic,
though not as good as no finish at all.

It would stand to reason that a wood body's vibrations would be effected similarly.

And yeah, knowing about what the different woods do is only a guideline.
Since guitars are what they are - just getting a 59 LP and expecting it to sound the same as Koss's LP is a fantasy.

They have to be played to determine which comes together best.

And I play every electric acoustically first.
Most NEVER make it to the amp with me.

Call me a fanatic :twisted:

Ken

Well, I have been wondering the same thing as Steve-O, and I think it's more of a scientific "why?" question than it is a claim that it shouldn't affect the sound. Of course, acoustically, it's obvious why the wood affects the sound, but going through the pickup is a different story.

From what I understand, pickups work by electromagnetism: the vibration of the string is the only input into the pickup as it moves through the magnetic field of the pickup; the pickup isn't really picking up the sound waves directly. Is this correct?

If that is correct, that would mean the pickup is unaffected by the sound resonating through the wood; so would the wood's vibrations be in turn affecting the string again? Or do pickups also pick up some part of the sound resonating through the wood?

I'm ok with accepting that "it just does matter", but I'm also just curious as to the science behind it...

Call me a fanatic :twisted:

Okay, you're a fanatic!

Yes, woods can make a difference in the way an electric guitar sounds. But the tone freaks vastly overstate the impact.

I like this quote from a custom builder:
Wood affects the tone as a seasoning affects a soup. It won't turn minestrone into split pea... it's a secondary influence. The fact that an instrument IS wood has a HUGE effect, but the meat and potatoes of an electric instrument come from its construction parameters (scale, neck mounting, etc.) and its pickups (type & location). To give you an example, let's take a plywood $99 Squier P-bass and a $2500 custom shop P-bass. They do not sound all that drastically different. Different as in richer lows, clearer highs, warmer mids? Yeah, a bit. Sure. Different as in one sounds like a P-bass and the other one doesn't? Absolutely not.

Thankx Slej :D for callin' me a fanatic. :lol:

Well, really - to me the smallest thing makes a big difference.

Like I said - you can have a one piece ash body on a Tele and a two piece ash body on a Strat -
what that does is makes the tele more direct and the strat more transparent.

I can hear that.

Now a tele is spose to be bright.
A real tele IS.
A MIM tele is just trebley.
To most people, they can't distinguish the difference.
Especially for the price difference.
MIM teles dont have solid wood one piece bodys OR even correct Fender style SC pups.
There's NO WAY they can sound the same.

I have a 3 piece alder Stat and a 2 piece Ash strat.
I CAN hear the tonal difference.

Ash has a slightly broken sound to it (listen to Clapton's Brownie on the Layla album)
Alder sounds more like the strat that the guitarist in Los Lonely Boys plays.

I have a Maple board and an Rosewood board.
With maple, you just play it.
With rosewood, it can take over and dictate how you play.

Yes, the scale has a sonic difference.
Fenders have a snappy longer scale length than Gibbos.

PUP location is crucial.
On new guitars, it's customary to put hotter pups in the bridge pos. and a reverse wound/reverse polarity mid pup (on strats)
On vintage guitars, ALL the pups were the same.
So what made them sound different was the position on the guitar.

That all matters - it doesn't take away from the fact that a guitar is first and foremost an acoustic wood instrument.
That is the major tone factor.
If there is ANY problem on an electric, acoustically speaking.... It will only be amplified by the pups.

Ken

From what I understand, pickups work by electromagnetism: the vibration of the string is the only input into the pickup as it moves through the magnetic field of the pickup; the pickup isn't really picking up the sound waves directly. Is this correct?

If that is correct, that would mean the pickup is unaffected by the sound resonating through the wood; so would the wood's vibrations be in turn affecting the string again? Or do pickups also pick up some part of the sound resonating through the wood?

I'm ok with accepting that "it just does matter", but I'm also just curious as to the science behind it...

You are assuming the entire vibration and resonance is completely in the string. It is not. The supporting structure (body) exchanges energy with the string by absorbing some of that energy at the support points -- bridge and nut -- and the rest through sympathetic vibration (resonant vibration). So the amount of energy the body absorbs and returns to the string over time certainly affects the vibrational characteristics of the string. A magnetic pup just happens to mostly sample the vibration from the string. Piezo transducers mounted in the body of an electric guitar also pick up vibrations, proving there is energy there as well. Furthermore, the magnetic pup is not suspecded in space, but mounted on the body somehow, so it is also subject to vibrations from the body. How? Consider it from this contrived POV: If the strings are fixed (not vibrating), but the body is vibrating, the pup will move with the body. But it doesn't "know" that it is moving and not the strings -- that is there is no practical difference between moving the string through the magnetic field or moving the magnetic field over the string. So body vibrations are also picked up by the pup. A place to look for further proof: A pup sounds different anchored firmly on the body as compared to suspended by two pup screws on a plastic pup ring which is in turn mounted to the body (one reason I think all those LP juniors with firmly mounted dogear P90s sound so solid compared to more expesive guitars with fancy adjustable pup ring mounting systems -- but just a theory).

Put it another way -- no vibration, no sound, right. If a guitar body has a lossy (dissapative) sound/vibrational characteristic it will in turn cause an undesireable string ADSR (Attack, Decay, Sustain, Release) characteristic. Maybe plunk then thunk then nothing -- then the pup isn't going to have much to pick up is it? Somewhere in between no sustain and infinite sustain are all sorts of decay characteristics (some even start soft and get louder as the body returns energy to the string) that pup can't help but grab and send to the amp.

Body resonance characteristics also affect timbre as well as fundamental tone ADSR volume envelop because every harmonic of the fundamental tone has its own ADSR characteristic and phase relative to the fundamental. Different body designs (contruction, woods) affect the ADSR characteristics of each frequency differently, so affect each harmonic somewhat differently. The ratio and phases of all the harmonics to the fundametal over time (ADSR) = timbre.

Nothing is simple here.

Thanks for the excellent explanation, gnease! That all makes a lot of sense.

LOL -

I'm a firm believer in finish effecting tone.
I have two Strats - one with a Lacquer finish and one with a Polyurethane finish.
The Lacquer one is way more vibrant and acoustically louder - wich translates to a louder more vibrant and alive
amplified sound.

I mean strings vibrate right????
If I leave them bare they vibrate more than if I coat them in a catalized hard plastic coating right????
If I put a more forgiving Nitro Lacquer finish on them they vibrate better than being encased in hard plastic,
though not as good as no finish at all.

It would stand to reason that a wood body's vibrations would be effected similarly.

And yeah, knowing about what the different woods do is only a guideline.
Since guitars are what they are - just getting a 59 LP and expecting it to sound the same as Koss's LP is a fantasy.

They have to be played to determine which comes together best.

And I play every electric acoustically first.
Most NEVER make it to the amp with me.

Call me a fanatic :twisted:

Ken

I can buy that a thick poly coat changes the body resonances and losses -- but it's probably due more to the thickness than the lacquer composition, as thin => more flexible. And poly coats tend to be thick and 3-D like, whereas Nitro is alway thin. So we don't really have a good way of comparing both in the same thickness do we?

As far as putting lacquer on strings versus body -- that's not a valid comparison, as the body and string vibrate in completely different modes. Lacquer on the string is probably more comparible to infusing the entire guitar body with lacquer. Now that I'd like to see ... or hear.

Gnease - Great to have someone with all your knowledge around. :D

That was a great explination as to string/body vibrations and PUPS.

Thankx for that.

And as always - thankx for setting me straight with some good humor thrown in for good measure on the finish issue. :wink:

Yeah, thickness is probably the detemining factor as far as that goes.

Ken

Okay - just saw that last part of the original post, and hopefully Gnease is still around for some VERY useful insight
on this.....

Sustain - Well, on Gibbos the traditional stop tailpiece seems to have more sustain than say a Lyre Vibrola.

Pickups have a LOT to do with sustain.
Gibbos with Alnico II magnet HBs seem to have a great deal of sustain due to the way the pup is made.
More windings for the strength and a weak magnet under the coil = less string pull/longer vibration.

Also Gibbos have that smaller scale length which would seem to keep the string going a bit longer as well.

As for resonance of wood....
I'm more of a Fender guy - to me Ash is the best body wood.
My ash bodied Strat has AWSOME resonance. (It also has the Nitro Lacquer finish and the rosewood board).

I have to say though that the BEST sounding guitar I ever personally heard was a Mahogany bodied MIJ 69 RI Thinline Tele
from the mid 80s.

And one of the sweetest sounding guitars I ever heard on record has to be Harrison's ALL Rosewood Tele from the Beatle's
LET IT BE era.

Ken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPgEoBlNuqM

Here's one of my fav Beatles songs with George using his Rosewood Tele.

Note the clear bell like tone.
The highs are bright, also with a nice round warmth to them.

This is what good tonewood does for an electric (not to mention good pickups)

Hope you all enjoy it as much as I do....

Ken

EDIT - I just did some research on the rosewood tele - they apparently had a thin piece of maple sandwiched in between
the rosewood. Also had tone chambers (like a thineline without the f hole).
And was finished in polyurethane.

Here's some pics of a real one. Absolutely beautiful.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/101977
And a great story on Harrison's.

Thanks everyone, I guess you learn something new everyday :lol: