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em and g major

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(@smokehouse)
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Joined: 18 years ago
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just doing my bit learning scales and it says em blues and g major are the same! hope this is true or do i need another site for my scale tuition?

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(@noteboat)
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Hmmm...

E minor pentatonic and G major pentatonic are the same. Pentatonics have five notes, major scales have seven. The blues scale has six.

So no, the E minor blues and G major scales are not the same - but I'm guessing they were showing pentatonics and saying they'd work over Em blues.

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(@smokehouse)
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Topic starter  

but the finger position the fret board says the same, but its a case of 5 notes on em and 6 on g major....correct?

:WHO INVENTED WORK SHOULD COME BACK AND FINISH THE JOB OFF: http://www.soundclick.com/bartin


   
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(@primeta)
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It might help if you told Noteboat the site :)

"Things may get a whole lot worse/ Before suddenly falling apart"
Steely Dan
"Look at me coyote, don't let a little road dust put you off" Knopfler


   
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 lars
(@lars)
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but the finger position the fret board says the same, but its a case of 5 notes on em and 6 on g major....correct?

You can think of it ike this: To play a blues scale in G - take the em pentatonic scale and add a Bb - if you don't add it - it sounds ok, i.e. you don't play any wrong notes, but you don't get the real blues sound.

right noteboat?

Lars (think one post will suffice for me... ;))

...only thing I know how to do is to keep on keepin' on...

LARS kolberg http://www.facebook.com/sangerersomfolk


   
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(@smokehouse)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 525
Topic starter  

ok thanks guys thats sorted it nicely...ps i used http://www.guitarists.net/scales [the site is down at the moment hope i did,nt break it ] :oops:

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(@hbriem)
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G major has the notes:

G_A_BC_D_E_F#G

E (natural) minor has the same notes, but arranged differently:

E_F#G_A_BC_D_E

To get the pentatonic (5 note) versions for easier improvisation, drop the half-steps (C and F#):

G major pentatonic:

G_A_B__D_E__G

E minor pentatonic again has the same notes, but arranged differently (with E as "home"):

E__G_A_B__D_E

The E minor pentatonic is closely related to what is often called the E blues scale:

E__G_ABbB__D_E

which has a b5 note (Bb) between the 4 (A) and the 5 (B). This is sometimes called the "blue note", but this word is also often used of the b3 and the b7.

I hope this helps.

--
Helgi Briem
hbriem AT gmail DOT com


   
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 lars
(@lars)
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but the finger position the fret board says the same, but its a case of 5 notes on em and 6 on g major....correct?

You can think of it ike this: To play a blues scale in G - take the em pentatonic scale and add a Bb - if you don't add it - it sounds ok, i.e. you don't play any wrong notes, but you don't get the real blues sound.

right noteboat?

Lars (think one post will suffice for me... ;))

huh? must have left my head at home this morning :oops:
E minor pentatonic = G major pentatonic ~ E blues

...only thing I know how to do is to keep on keepin' on...

LARS kolberg http://www.facebook.com/sangerersomfolk


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
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I looked at the site, and the scales all seem right... but they do have a 'blues major' and a 'blues minor' scale.

Blues music uses the one they show as the 'blues minor' - the pattern 1-b3-4-b5-5-b7 is simply called the blues scale.

They show another one, 'blues major'. From their illustration, it's the major pentatonic with an added b3 (the same note as the b5 in the blues scale).

I don't know anyone who uses that scale.

When you're improvising, you can always use a chromatic run between pretty much any two notes that are a whole step apart, and it'll sound ok, so there are plenty of times I'd play that extra note in a major pentatonic... but I never think of it as 'major blues' - because for blues in a major key, you use what they show as the minor blues scale :)

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(@primeta)
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The entire nomenclature is really messed up isn't it?
I found another book with Minor Blues as
1 2 b3 4 b5 5 b6 b7
:? :? :? :?

"Things may get a whole lot worse/ Before suddenly falling apart"
Steely Dan
"Look at me coyote, don't let a little road dust put you off" Knopfler


   
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(@ricochet)
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Another way of looking at it: If you're playing over a I-IV-V backing in G Major, and play the E minor pentatonic (or E blues scale, with the added #4/b5 or Bb) notes, over the G backing what you're really doing is playing in G Major pentatonic, or with the added Bb (which is now a b3 in G), it becomes the "Major Blues Scale," a.k.a. "Traditional Blues Scale," a staple of Southern Gospel and New Orleans music. It's a modal sort of thing, the same scale starting at different points. Over the G backing, G will become the "home" note of your scale, so your riffs will change to reflect that. This only works over a major accompaniment, whereas the minor pentatonic or minor blues scale works over either a major or minor accompaniment.

You can't hear this without playing over a backing. When you do, you'll immediately hear a huge difference.

Now, since the blues scale, notes 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7, and the traditional blues scale, 1, 2, b3, 3, 5, 6, both work over the major accompaniment, that means you can combine them and any of it will work. 1, 2, b3, 3, 4, b5, 5, 6, b7 is sort of a "Super Blues Scale" that's enormously useful for soloing over a major accompaniment. Or, you can switch back and forth between the major and minor. More arrows for your quiver.

8)

"A cheerful heart is good medicine."


   
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(@margaret)
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E minor and G major the same? I've played piano far longer than I've played guitar, and that doesn't sound right for piano, so I can't imagine it would be right for guitar, either. A major scale is eight notes, counting the octave, or seven, not counting the octave.

Hal Leonard's book "Blues Guitar" by Greg Koch defines a blues scale as a six-note scale that contains the root, the flatted 3rd, the 4th, the flatted 5th, the 5th, and the flatted 7th(or "blue note").

Can there even BE a "minor blues" scale? A blues scale in any key has a minor'ish SOUND to it, but isn't a "blues scale" a category the same as a "minor scale" or a "major scale"? If that's true, saying a "minor blues scale" would be akin to saying a "major minor scale," or some such. Wouldn't it?

Now I'm really curious. Can someone who knows more about music theory respond?

Margaret

When my mind is free, you know a melody can move me
And when I'm feelin' blue, the guitar's comin' through to soothe me ~


   
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(@ricochet)
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E minor and G major the same? I've played piano far longer than I've played guitar, and that doesn't sound right for piano, so I can't imagine it would be right for guitar, either. A major scale is eight notes, counting the octave, or seven, not counting the octave.

Hal Leonard's book "Blues Guitar" by Greg Koch defines a blues scale as a six-note scale that contains the root, the flatted 3rd, the 4th, the flatted 5th, the 5th, and the flatted 7th(or "blue note").

Can there even BE a "minor blues" scale? A blues scale in any key has a minor'ish SOUND to it, but isn't a "blues scale" a category the same as a "minor scale" or a "major scale"? If that's true, saying a "minor blues scale" would be akin to saying a "major minor scale," or some such. Wouldn't it?

Now I'm really curious. Can someone who knows more about music theory respond?

MargaretExactly. The E minor blues scale, consisting of the root, flatted third, foutrth, flatted fifth, fifth, and flatted seventh, contains the same notes as the "Traditional Blues Scale," sometimes called the "Major Blues Scale," in G. You're just starting from different notes in the same series. Usually we just discuss the minor blues scale as "The Blues Scale," but there is another one, equally venerable. Just as the minor blues scale is the minor pentatonic with one note (the flatted fifth) added to it, the traditional blues scale is the major pentatonic with the flatted third added to it. It's used a lot more in piano music than guitar. Like I said, gospel and New Orleans jazz are full of it.

Surely you're familiar with the concept of modes. The C major scale is also the Ionian mode beginning on C, the same scale in the Dorian mode starts on D, the Phrygian mode starts on E, etc., and they seem to be different "scales" but consist of the same notes in the same order, just with a different starting point. That's how the major and minor pentatonic scales, and their corresponding "blues scales," work.

Look at the black keys on your piano. Start playing them on D#/Eb and go up, staying just on the black keys. You get a minor pentatonic. Start on F#/Gb and do the same. You get a major pentatonic. Same notes, two scales. Now, what happens if you move all those notes up a half step? You get an E minor pentatonic and a G major pentatonic, using exactly the same set of 5 notes. Now, add in a Bb to those pentatonics. To the E minor pentatonic, the added note is going to be a flatted fifth, which gives the minor blues scale, commonly just called "The Blues Scale." To the G major pentatonic, it's adding the flatted third, which gives the "Traditional Blues Scale" or "Major Blues Scale." The intervals here are 1, 2, b3, 3, 5, 6. Those intervals of course will give you the same scale in any key.

On either the guitar or piano, you can "cheat" and find this "new" scale by moving the blues scale patterns you were playing down three frets or three keys on the keyboard. But it only works when you're playing over a backing accompaniment in a major key, which will force you to recognize the root note as the starting point. Otherwise, you'll just be playing your same old blues scale licks in a lower key. Or to say the same thing in a different way, figure out the relative minor of the major key you're playing in, and play notes from the blues scale of the key of that relative minor.

Try it! It'll all become abundantly clear when you do. It still has a very "bluesy" sound, but a more upbeat one than the minor blues scale. Very cool!

"A cheerful heart is good medicine."


   
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(@noteboat)
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E minor and G major the same? I've played piano far longer than I've played guitar, and that doesn't sound right for piano, so I can't imagine it would be right for guitar, either. A major scale is eight notes, counting the octave, or seven, not counting the octave.

Hal Leonard's book "Blues Guitar" by Greg Koch defines a blues scale as a six-note scale that contains the root, the flatted 3rd, the 4th, the flatted 5th, the 5th, and the flatted 7th(or "blue note").

Can there even BE a "minor blues" scale? A blues scale in any key has a minor'ish SOUND to it, but isn't a "blues scale" a category the same as a "minor scale" or a "major scale"? If that's true, saying a "minor blues scale" would be akin to saying a "major minor scale," or some such. Wouldn't it?

Now I'm really curious. Can someone who knows more about music theory respond?

Margaret

In theory circles, blues aren't talked about much. Western theory grew up around classical music, and blues is a traditional/folk style - just like other folk styles (Indian raga or Arabic music, for instance) blues grew up 'outside' of western music theory. In for any style - including classical - the music comes first, and the theorist set out to explain what came about through the "common practice" of composers. Some styles (like classical, raga, and Arabic music) have a well developed theory that grew up with the music, and some (blues, ragtime, or gypsy folk) don't.

Koch's blues scale definition is the same one I learned in college. As Ric explained, the application of major/minor terms to a blues scale is a parallel to the relationship between the major scale and the natural minor - the same tones, but with the root moved down a minor third within the tone set.

I tend to disagree with a major/minor label for the blues, because a) the blues is essentially a minor scale - using a flatted third; b) the dissonance produced using that minor third against a major harmony is a major characteristic of blues; and c) in hanging out with old time blues musicians, I have never once heard the terms 'major' or 'minor' applied to anything but chords.

The 'traditional' blues scale Ric mentioned is found more often in Gospel music, which has a lot of crossover to the blues. According to the Harvard Dictionary of Music, blues is defined as a subset of jazz, originating from work songs and spirituals, and historians recognize blues as a separate genre beginning in 1909 with W.C. Handy. The group of songs classed as 'spirituals' in the same text (including gospel music) are standard church hymns "but with certain native characteristics, such as a preference for pentatonic melodies". So while the styles of blues and gospel have risen from common roots, they're now stylistically different - and we might be better off recognizing one as the blues scale and the other as the gospel scale.

One of the really hard things for theorists/historians in dealing with folk styles like the blues is the fact that folk styles affect each other within geographic areas. Blues, gospel, and 'mountain music' share many similarities. Delta blues, Texas blues, Chicago blues - each has subtle differences. Most folk music isn't well documented before the late 1800s - the advent of sound recording makes it easy to track later developments in styles, but it's hard to trace roots before then. We know a lot about the development of "common practice" in western classical music, it's easy to work out the development of applicable theory, but it's harder to do with less-documented styles like blues.

The effect of the major/minor dissonance of the blues is actually found in classical music (a few years earlier than the recognition of blues as a style, in fact), but is considered a 'modal mixture' - where the melody ventured into a minor scale with the same root as the major harmonies. Piston's "Harmony" credits Ravel with the first use of this device, and cites his Miroirs: No. 4 as an example of a minor third against dominant seventh and dominant ninth harmony, and his Rapsodie espagnole for the use of both major and minor thirds and sevenths against a dominant harmony.

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(@ricochet)
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So while the styles of blues and gospel have risen from common roots, they're now stylistically different - and we might be better off recognizing one as the blues scale and the other as the gospel scale.I like that idea. I'm just using the terminology I learned from my teacher. A few references to the "traditional blues scale" or "major blues scale" will turn up online Googling for it, but mighty few. Haven't looked in 3-4 years.

As for the major pentatonic, it's also a staple of country music. Won't hurt a thing if you sneak a minor third in there now and then when nobody's looking. :wink:

Last year I was just noodling around in the major pentatonic scale and discovered the familiar old tune "Shortnin' Bread." Uses that whole scale, and nothing else.

Some really cool keyboard riffs can be found using that combined "super blues scale" (I just made up that name) that I mentioned above, the addition of the blues scale and "gospel scale." (I like that name, thanks, NoteBoat!) 8) You'll hear New Orleans jazz pianists doing exactly that, all the time.

"A cheerful heart is good medicine."


   
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