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How important is it to learn to read music on top of tabs?

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(@quarterfront)
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I have a friend who asked me the following riddle:

Q: "How to you get an electric guitar player to turn down his amp?"
A: "Put sheet music in front of him."

Standard notation seems a lot better than tab where it comes to communicating rhythm. But tab has a lot going for it where it relates to the particular idiosyncrasies of the guitar. As a beginning guitarist who knows standard notation well enough to plunk things out on the piano I also know that I'd be lost trying to play guitar from standard notation.

On a piano when you see a chord written out there's only one possible combination of keys that can be pressed to play that chord. One the guitar there often seem to be multiple ways of playing the same chord and which one you choose often depends on where you're coming from and/or where you're going to.

Can anybody who knows how to read standard notation for guitar comment on this?


   
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(@anonymous)
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the simpler stuff usually has a little clue as to which string it is supposed to be played on.
the harder stuff, i guess it's just the musician's responsibility to decide what the best hand position is.


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
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Pieces by Bach I've seen (and never dared to try :lol: ) indicate position.


   
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(@noteboat)
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On a piano when you see a chord written out there's only one possible combination of keys that can be pressed to play that chord. One the guitar there often seem to be multiple ways of playing the same chord and which one you choose often depends on where you're coming from and/or where you're going to.

Can anybody who knows how to read standard notation for guitar comment on this?

Very true. A C major triad in root position on the piano is in one place (middle C, and the E and G just above that). To get the identical tones on the guitar:

-3-x--x--x--
-5-8--x--x--
-5-9--12-x--
-x-10-14-17-
-x-x--15-19-
-x-x--x--20-

Some sheet music will indicate guitar position above the staff, either in plain text (i.e. "7th position") or in some classical guitar music, by Roman numerals (VII). Most standard notation doesn't.

When I'm reading at sight, I glance over the piece and look for ledger lines. If the lowest note is A (second ledger line below the staff) I'll be in fifth position or lower; if I see E (third ledger line above the staff) I'll be in seventh position or higher, etc.

As a general rule of thumb, on the first pass I read in as low a position as possible. if the highest note was that E, and the piece is in C, I'll be in seventh position. I also keep a pencil on the music stand - if seventh turns out to give me tough fingerings, I'll move to another position for C like 10th or 12th.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@quarterfront)
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Some sheet music will indicate guitar position above the staff, either in plain text (i.e. "7th position") or in some classical guitar music, by Roman numerals (VII). Most standard notation doesn't.

...

As a general rule of thumb, on the first pass I read in as low a position as possible. .... I also keep a pencil on the music stand - if seventh turns out to give me tough fingerings, I'll move to another position ....

This leads me to think that standard staff music notation for the guitar is often more a "suggestion" than a note for note transcription of what is to be played, where as with sheet music for piano the written music relates note for note to what is meant to be played. It seems to me that where guitar is involved the most direct way to get a literal "this is how to play it just so" notation is by using both staff and tab together.

And in turn, this seems to lead into a discussion of how the intention of music notation varies from piece to piece. For example, the sheet music I have for a Chopin Nocturne that I play is meant to tell me to "play these notes, no more, no less"; likewise the sheet music for "Little Wing" that I've been working on (staff notation plus tab) attempts to literally transcribe Jimi Hendrix's performance on Axis Bold as Love. Of course I can't play like Chopin or like Hendrix - that's interpertation and musicianship - but at least the sheet music will tell me what notes to play when.

But that's not always the intent of notation. By and large, for working guitarists who read standard notation, how much of the notation that they read that comes without tablature is still intended to be played "just so"?


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
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It seems to me that where guitar is involved the most direct way to get a literal "this is how to play it just so" notation is by using both staff and tab together.

And since you're not alone in this this mix of staff and tab does exist, and is indeed awesome. :lol:


   
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(@noteboat)
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By and large, for working guitarists who read standard notation, how much of the notation that they read that comes without tablature is still intended to be played "just so"

Depends on what it is. When I work with bands where charts are provided, which is mostly jazz/standards, you play what's on the page; it's part of an arrangement for the ensemble (or it's a 'head chart', where everyone plays the melody the first time through, and then you comp the chords during most of the solos).

When I used to do studio work, charts varied a lot. The simplest with standard notation might have a couple bars to suggest a melody, then a notation like 'fusion style' or whatever - you made that up as you went along. Others had parts completely written out - some of those were playable, some weren't... not all composers know what a guitar can and can't do. If the part wasn't playable, it was a judgement call - how well do you know the producer? If he knows your chops, you can say "hey, this part just isn't going to make it, how about if I do this?"... if he doesn't know your chops, will you leave him with the impression that it's playable but you're not up to it?

By the way, I have NEVER had somebody hand me guitar tab for a gig. You get standard notation, or sometimes a chord chart, or you get nothing at all.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@quarterfront)
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By the way, I have NEVER had somebody hand me guitar tab for a gig. You get standard notation, or sometimes a chord chart, or you get nothing at all.

Obviously standard notation is a universal musical language; and it would be absurd to expect music directors or composers who are non-guitarists to play guitar just so that they could write guitar parts out in tab to make life cushy for primo-don guitar players.

But what about guitar players who are writing just for themselves or just for other guitar players? It seems crazy to try to write music out in standard notation when tab is so intuitive and precise.

The main problem with tab, or at least with the tab I've worked with, is that it doesn't have a symbol convention for rhythm notation. When I'm reading notation plus tab I'm looking at the tab to get the notes and stuff like hammer on/pull off, vibrato, slide, etc... and referring to the standard notation for rhythm. Is there a standardized form of tab that includes concise rhythm notation?

Also, for us non-genius level musicians, even when you're a non-genius do you reach a point reasonably quickly where you know how to notate what you're playing in standard notation so well that writing out your compositions in tab is actually tedious by comparison? (i.e. "Man, why am I writing all of these numbers when I could just be drawing little dots and be done with it".)


   
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(@jonsi)
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You can't talk intelligently about theory without reading music, and it's the language of music for talking with other musicians on other instruments.

Yes you can, I don't agree. If you write down music you write down ideas and concept that can be communicated in many ways. You can talk about triads, cadences, tonikas and stuff even if you cant read music.


   
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(@noteboat)
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Not reading standard notation will seriously limit your ability to understand theory, though - if you don't read, there's less awareness that F# is noted differently than Gb - I mean, either one is two frets above E; for non-readers, that's 'close enough'. Grasping that there's a theoretical difference between a major second (E-F#) and a diminished third (E-Gb) becomes darn near impossible to visualize without notes.

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(@kingpatzer)
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You can't talk intelligently about theory without reading music, and it's the language of music for talking with other musicians on other instruments.

Yes you can, I don't agree. If you write down music you write down ideas and concept that can be communicated in many ways. You can talk about triads, cadences, tonikas and stuff even if you cant read music.

You can talk about physics wtih a physicist without knowing mathematics too, but not intelligently.

I can write all about Lorenz transformations without using a single mathematical symbol. Physicists will understand it. But I will not be being precise or concise. Nor will I be viewed as someone who really knows what they're talking about until I whip out the equations.

The same is true of music.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@paul-donnelly)
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Also, for us non-genius level musicians, even when you're a non-genius do you reach a point reasonably quickly where you know how to notate what you're playing in standard notation so well that writing out your compositions in tab is actually tedious by comparison? (i.e. "Man, why am I writing all of these numbers when I could just be drawing little dots and be done with it".)
Yes, you do. You know the note you want to write is a C, and you know where a C is on the staff. Writing down is easy, since there's no guesswork. While your note exists in a few places on the guitar, you already know where you're playing it. It's in only one place on the staff, so you just write it down.

You just don't have the practice you need to read standard notation. Trust me, anyone who does read will look at tab and think, "What is this supposed to mean?" Without rhythmic information, tab is essentially useless for conveying a musical idea. There's no information on the phrasing, and it sure doesn't let you see melodic or harmonic relationships at a glance. Tab just shows you where to put your fingers, and after a certain point in your musical development that's more annoying than helpful. It would be like trying to recite a passage from a book using diagrams of how to hold your mouth.


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
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You can talk about physics wtih a physicist without knowing mathematics too, but not intelligently.

I can write all about Lorenz transformations without using a single mathematical symbol. Physicists will understand it. But I will not be being precise or concise. Nor will I be viewed as someone who really knows what they're talking about until I whip out the equations.

The same is true of music.

Nonsense. Music notation is a method to convey ideas and information that can perfectly be conveyed in other means. There is very little difference between saying 'Open C-chord' and writing it down in tab/ notation or any other notation system. You can, after all, be an excellent Physicist without being able to write English, the standard language in the western (scientific) world.


   
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(@greybeard)
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Nonsense. Music notation is a method to convey ideas and information that can perfectly be conveyed in other means. There is very little difference between saying 'Open C-chord' and writing it down in tab/ notation or any other notation system.

Sorry, Arjen, but it is that, which is nonsense.

Musical notation conveys note only WHAT is to be played, but how FAST and with what RHYTHM. That cannot be said of Tab, for example.

As far as science is concerned, a formula or equation expresses the solution to a problem and may be worked out in 1 second or over the space of a day - how long it takes to do that is irrelevant, as there is no time factor in the solution to a physics problem (time may well play a part in the formula or equation as one of the parameters).

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(@ignar-hillstrom)
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Why does everyone assume tab doens't say anything about rhythm?


   
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