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Q's re: Tuning Down to Eb (SRV)

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(@slejhamer)
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I recently read that Stevie Ray Vaughan regularly tuned his guitar down a 1/2-step to Eb.

Does this mean that the rest of his band would also tune down, or would they still play in standard E-tuning (concert pitch) and he'd be out of key with them?

Also, if I look at the notation for an SRV song, it seems that the notation doesn't adjust for the flat tuning - for example, the key signature is still E and the notes reflect standard tuning. Is this just done for convenience, rather than flattening every note in the transcription?

(I know SRV is not the only one who tunes down; I'm simply using him as an example.)

TIA,

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(@musenfreund)
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It means that he could play in Eb but still play open chords. So when he played a C, a B sounded. The rest of the band wouldn' t need to tune down but everyone would need to play in the same key. I doubt that the bass player would tune down, but maybe. Would another guitarist in the band tune down? Most likely. Is that what you're asking?

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(@slejhamer)
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Is that what you're asking?
Yes, sorta. Here's the context: I'm playing the intro to Mary Had a Little Lamb, with my teacher playing rhythm. We're both in standard E tuning.

But for me to play it according to the sheet music (and the way SRV played it), I need to be tuned to Eb.

So there's two points of confusion for me:

First, the notation on the sheet music doesn't reflect the flatted tuning - an A note is written as an A note, not Ab. The only way I know it's really an Ab is it's written at the top of the first page to tune down a 1/2 step. Is that typical, rather than flatting everything in the notation?

Second, if I tune down and play the lead in Eb tuning, should my teacher playing rhythm also be tuned down? Your answer above is 'yes,' and that makes perfect sense to me, but I wasn't sure in the case of SRV if he played in Eb while the rest of the band played at concert pitch.

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(@demoetc)
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Is that what you're asking?
Yes, sorta. Here's the context: I'm playing the intro to Mary Had a Little Lamb, with my teacher playing rhythm. We're both in standard E tuning.

But for me to play it according to the sheet music (and the way SRV played it), I need to be tuned to Eb.

SRV 'played' it in Eb - meaning yes, he did tune down. They leave it notated as E natural because it was originally meant to be played using open chords. If you kept in standard concert pitch, and tried to play it in Eb, you'd automatically have to play it with barre chords. This is not was intended by the sheet music publisher.
So there's two points of confusion for me:

First, the notation on the sheet music doesn't reflect the flatted tuning - an A note is written as an A note, not Ab. The only way I know it's really an Ab is it's written at the top of the first page to tune down a 1/2 step. Is that typical, rather than flatting everything in the notation?

Yes, it's to make it easier to read, but also have the same sort of open-chord voicings in the orignal.

Second, if I tune down and play the lead in Eb tuning, should my teacher playing rhythm also be tuned down? Your answer above is 'yes,' and that makes perfect sense to me, but I wasn't sure in the case of SRV if he played in Eb while the rest of the band played at concert pitch.

Yeah, technically, it would be like tuning to a 'different concert pitch' so to speak. So you'd both be on the same page basically. He could most likely keep his guitar in standard concert pitch and play along with you, but his chord shapes (voicings) would be different than what was originally intended by the composer.

Generally a half-step down is no big problem for the rest of the band. Down-tuning is basically to match the singer's voice, or to give the singer's voice less of a strain when the tour is long and the shows, many. Sometimes that half-step is all there is between being able to do 200 shows a year and blowing your voice out after 6. I think Hendrix did it originally to match his voice because he wasn't a tenor or high-tenor. He used pretty light gauge strings too, if I remember, so it wasn't about string bending. Down-tuning is sort of the same thing as using a capo, except going in the 'opposite direction' like a 'negative capo' I guess you could say. It's to allow the player to play the same easy, full, open type chords but adjusting the actual concert pitch downward to give the voice a break.

I believe, though I can't quote a source offhand, that Noel Redding tuned down to match Hendrix, though you really couldn't tell most times because he usually played up the neck a bit. I'm pretty sure SRV's band (well, the string guys) tuned down to match him. There's a lot of low, open-string bass growl in some of those songs, and...well, if the bassist kept his bass in concert pitch and then had to play a low Eb, it wouldn't be the open 4th string, that's for sure. He'd have to play the 1st fret of the second string and that would be almost in the same octave as the guitar. So yah, I think he tuned down so he could use that big fat open 4th string.

Just think of down-tuning as a 'negative capo' and you'll see what the music publishers are doing. Like even with some of the Rolling Stones and Beatles songbooks I started out on - they'd, a lot of times, be in Easy Piano arrangements - in C or G or F, which, when you think of it, aren't your 'normal' guitar keys. But they did it so it would be easy to play on the piano. But the Beatles were basically tenor-range singers so E, D, A - those were the keys they most likely wrote the songs in. I'd listen to the record and it wouldn't even be close.

With the SRV stuff, if you're going to learn the stuff and try to play along with the record, then just down-tune and 'assume' you're still in concert pitch and follow the sheet music. If you're not going to play along with the record, then just learn it from the sheet music, in concert pitch, and then maybe lower it later on if you want, or if you want to match your voice or something. You never know, you might wind up having to use a capo if your voice is higher - but the thing is, you'd still be using the same 'chord shapes.'

Hope this helps.


   
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(@slejhamer)
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Thanks - the "negative capo" comment really helped.

In the sheet music, the chords are labeled E7, A7, etc., and those are obviously the chord shapes not the actual chords being played. This makes much more sense now!

Thank you both. :D

"Everybody got to elevate from the norm."


   
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(@demoetc)
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Cool man; glad we could help out!


   
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(@noteboat)
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Is that what you're asking?
First, the notation on the sheet music doesn't reflect the flatted tuning - an A note is written as an A note, not Ab. The only way I know it's really an Ab is it's written at the top of the first page to tune down a 1/2 step. Is that typical, rather than flatting everything in the notation?

It's typical... not right, but typical :)

A lot of music publishers are 'dumbing down' standard notation, because most guitarists can't read it anyway.

The correct way to note it is to do either of two things:

1. Write the music in concert pitch - which means the chord spellings would be Eb, etc. - although tab accompanying the notation would look like a regular E chord, since tab reflects only the fingering.

2. Note the guitar music as being in a different key. However, the guitar is not in Eb in this case - it's in B natural. Many instruments (trumpet, sax, etc.) play from transposed charts, so you'll see music that says "for Bb instruments" or something along those lines. What this means is that when the instrument plays a written C, a concert Bb comes out. In this case, you've lowered the tuning a half step, so when you play a written C, a B natural note comes out. So if you're going to write the music as if nothing has changed, you would say "guitar in B (Eb tuning) or something along those lines - the 'guitar in B' part would be for arrangers/conductors to put it on the same standard as other transposed instruments, and the 'Eb tuning' part would be for guitarists.

Many rock guitarists have played in altered tunings. Most publishers will write concert pitch for a transposed non-standard tuning, such as DADGAD, but many are now using standard pitch for transposed standard tunings. This is a real pain if you want to share the music with another instrument - they'll read it like it's concert pitch.

The exception is classical guitar music - I have never seen that written in transposition, no matter what the tuning. Perhaps that's because the majority of classical guitarists actually use the written notes.

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(@demoetc)
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Yes, it's a dumming down of things for sure.

You know though, what's your thoughts on classical guitar music? In a certain way even it (the single staff stuff) is transposed in a manner of speaking but it has the 8va indication on at the head of the piece somewhere. It's not 'really' transposed I guess, but it's also not written at concert pitch, right?


   
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(@banre)
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Yes, it's a dumming down of things for sure.

You know though, what's your thoughts on classical guitar music? In a certain way even it (the single staff stuff) is transposed in a manner of speaking but it has the 8va indication on at the head of the piece somewhere. It's not 'really' transposed I guess, but it's also not written at concert pitch, right?

That's the "It's actually up an octave" indicator? Being a tuba player, I didn't see too much of that, but I think that pretty much all the piccolo players music was like that. No one wants to write all the ledger lines, not to mention having to read all of them!

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(@slejhamer)
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2. Note the guitar music as being in a different key. However, the guitar is not in Eb in this case - it's in B natural. Many instruments (trumpet, sax, etc.) play from transposed charts, so you'll see music that says "for Bb instruments" or something along those lines. What this means is that when the instrument plays a written C, a concert Bb comes out. In this case, you've lowered the tuning a half step, so when you play a written C, a B natural note comes out. So if you're going to write the music as if nothing has changed, you would say "guitar in B (Eb tuning)
I had to read that a few times and let it sink in a bit ... but I get it! 8) A couple of articles on standard notation (written by some guy named Tom :wink: ) also helped.

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(@noteboat)
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When instruments are written an octave higher than they sound, they're still in the same key - although it's true the music isn't in concert pitch.

The guitar isn't alone there: the string (upright) bass sounds an octave lower than written, as does the contra-bassoon. On the other end, the piccolo sounds an octave higher than its written.

The bass clarinet also sounds an octave lower than it's written - but it's a Bb instrument, so it actually sounds a major ninth below concert.

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