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(@vic-lewis-vl)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 10264
 

Some good advice there, Arjen.

Just for fun, I thought I'd make a few comparisons between myself and Arjen.

The obvious place to start is the age difference - I'm 51, Arjen's, what, 21? 22? So I've been listening to music for over twice his lifespan - you'd think I'd know at least twice as much, right? Nope, wrong. He's far more receptive to new ideas than I am - I've been listening to the same old stuff for about 25 years or so.

Guitar playing - he's been playing about 4-5 years, I've been playing about 30. So I should be a lot better than him, right? Hmmmm.....I might have a slight edge when it comes to rhythm guitar, but when it comes to improvisation and lead, he's got me beat hands down...although, to be fair to myself, I've only really taken it seriously since I joined GN - and he was here before me!

Theory - he's got me beat hands down, here. He was answering questions from the time I started posting them - and he can read music, I've still never got round to it.

Keyboards - he can play, I can manage a few chords. 'Nuff said.

Creativity - I can come up with something musically interesting now and then, Arjen does it all the time.

Songwriting - I might just shade this one, if it comes to writing lyrics in English - but then again, when it comes to putting music to them, Arjen's far more productive - no two songs are ever the same.

So, even at the tender age Arjen's at, he's got me beat hands down when it comes to making music - and that's before we even go into his recording skills. Mine begin and end with Audacity - I can make my voice sound better by double-tracking it with a bit of delay, but that's about it. Arjen could probably make the Flying Lizards sound like the London Symphony Orchestra.

So why don't I give up? Arjen's way ahead of me in virtually everything, and he's got years and years to get even better...well there's a couple of things I do share with Arjen. A love of music, and a determination to get better - and the willingness to work at it. I don't have one tenth of his natural talent - he seems to pick up an instrument, and two minutes later he's writing music on it.

Am I jealous of his talent? You bet! But I always enjoy listening to his music, and wondering what he's going to come up with next.....same as when I hear people like Taso and Dan T and Smokingdog and Mesa Monster and Fleaaaa etc in the jam forum, and think, "I wish I could play like that."

But I'm happy with what I've got - I can play a decent rhythm guitar, I sometimes surprise myself by coming up with a good lead, I can write a decent song and put some good music to it....

And Lars, here's where you're in the same boat as me - you're at an intermediate level, you play a decent guitar - nothing earth-shattering, but good enough to get by - you sing well, you play harmonica well, and you've started writing a decent song or two. You've got talent, you just have to build on it, make the most of it....

Arjen's a one-off around here, he can turn his hand to anything, musically speaking, and come up with a surprise or two - there are probably better guitarists, better piano players, etc etc on this forum, but no-one else is more of a complete self-contained musical package than him.....you and I are just hacks in comparison.

BUT - and it's a big but - we've got music in us, and it's got to find a way out. Let it find its way - keep on playing, keep on writing, keep on singing, keep on recording yourself. You know you want to, Lars - so DO IT!

BTW, just to make a sporting comparison - when I was a teenager, Kevin Keegan was my idol. He played for Liverpool at a time when George Best played for Manchester United. Best was blessed with a superabundance of natural talent - one of the finest footballers I've ever seen. Keegan didn't have one half of that natural talent - but he worked ten times harder at it than GB. And that's where you and I are, Lars - we'll never be as good as Best, but if we work at it, we'll be Keegans.... and who would you rather have in your team? Someone who scores a great goal twice a season, or someone who works for the team, week in, week out? Someone who'll have a great game one week, then do nothing for the next three or four games, or someone who'll give 100% week in, week out, and for the good of the team, drag a little extra something out of nowhere when it's most needed?

Like Arjen said (and this applies to me also) stop wimping out - stop making excuses, and start making music. You know in your heart that's what you want to do - so like I said before, just DO IT! You know you CAN do it.....you've proved it already. Now you just have to raise your game a little....

All the best,

:D :D :D

Vic

"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)


   
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 Cat
(@cat)
Noble Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1224
 

Hey, Lars...

Ya can't read too much into what you see OTHERS doing with their music. No matter how good they are. But I gotta say that it's a good thing for you to be so brutally honest...and so open...with your posts. I said it before...and I'll say it again: you're a breath of fresh air, Lars!

If you didn't care about your music...then you wouldn't be all that concerned about it, now would you?

Look at the advice on the past few posts. Everyone goes through it. You just need to play more, that's all. Stick with it. The minutes add up to hours...then days...then years...then someone else will hear you play and say "Gee! Why do I bother!"

Cat :lol:

"Feel what you play...play what you feel!"


   
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(@gnease)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 5038
 

Lars, as said several times above, this is for you, not anyone else.

While it's not a popular view among the many GN zealots :wink: , I've never seen a problem with walking away for a time and coming back fresh. Most of us who've played for tens of years have been through the hiatus or two. I've always come back from a break with new perspectives in attitude, music and playing. I don't think that result is so unusual.

-=tension & release=-


   
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(@rum-runner)
Reputable Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 424
 

I had just gotten over some similar feelings about my playing just last weekend. I had been looking it seems like forever around my town for some other folks who are seriously into playing, enough to want to get together on a regular basis and do some stuff together. Well, I'm finally finding some folks like that through the open mike nights I've been going to.

Thing is, they've all been playing for years and years whereas I've only been at it for about four. And so these folks I hang around now are all much better than me. Well, last weekend I hosted our monthly song circle, and these guys were playing so well I felt like I had nothing to offer. I played one song all afternoon, I was really just not into it.

So afterwards I talked to my wife about it and she said quit comparing myself to these guys. She also suggested I talk to one of the guys who I particularly respect for his ability and ask him if he would kind of coach me on my performance. So, that nexty open mike night I went up to him and told him I'd like it if he would be willing to give me constructive feedback on my open mike performances, since I really respect him as a musician. Well, he was more than happy to do that for me. He even invited me to come to a gig he was doing the next, and he gave me the stage for a few songs. That was last night.

Now I am over it completely. Tonight I take my new battery powered 50 W Crate to play at a Halloween bonfire some friends are having, and I am excited.

So, it comes and goes. Itr all depends on how you treat these situations. You can use them as an excuse to throw in the towel, or you can use them as a challenge to keep going and continue to grow.

Regards,

Mike

"Growing Older But Not UP!"


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5349
 

Cool story, Mike!


   
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 Nuno
(@nuno)
Famed Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 3995
 

Itr all depends on how you treat these situations. You can use them as an excuse to throw in the towel, or you can use them as a challenge to keep going and continue to grow.
Truth!

Nice story!


   
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(@hyperborea)
Prominent Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 827
 

I just read an interview in Guitar Player with Pat Metheney that speaks to this (ok, I'm behind a little on my Guitar Player reading). I am paraphrasing but he was asked how to become a really good jazz musician. His answer was to always try to be the worst musician in whatever group you are playing with.

Pop music is about stealing pocket money from children. - Ian Anderson


   
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(@almann1979)
Noble Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1281
 

personally it doesnt matter to me how good other people are at things - the only thing that matters is "how far have I come?"

from what i have heard and read of Lars, he has come a very long way and should be very proud of that. i am not a good guitarist, i have only been playing for 3 years, but i am very proud of what i have achieved in that time and as long as i feel i learn something new and improve each day then i can appreciate other peoples talents without getting down about myself. after all, if i continue to learn and improve every day, i cannot fail to be very good in 10-15 years??? can I?

that is my mentality anyway, and i would be extremily proud to have achieved the talent somebody like lars has (granted i have only heard him in the jams), but just imagine how good he will be a few more years down the line!!

"I like to play that guitar. I have to stare at it while I'm playing it because I'm not very good at playing it."
Noel Gallagher (who took the words right out of my mouth)


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5349
 

after all, if i continue to learn and improve every day, i cannot fail to be very good in 10-15 years??? can I?

Exactly my thoughts. Music is a *long* journey but a lot of people have the mentality of a sprinter. And just as with a marathon pure muslce strength isn't the big deal, if you can manage to keep your mind fresh and focussed on taking each step as it comes you know you'll make the finish line in the end. Even if that line is particularly abstract and hazy in music. There've been thousands of very bright music philosophers writing thousands of book but if I had to give one bit of advice it would be:"Don't worry, be happy." You can't go wrong with being happy, ever.


   
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(@vic-lewis-vl)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 10264
 

I just read an interview in Guitar Player with Pat Metheney that speaks to this (ok, I'm behind a little on my Guitar Player reading). I am paraphrasing but he was asked how to become a really good jazz musician. His answer was to always try to be the worst musician in whatever group you are playing with.

That just doesn't make sense to me - if I'm the worst musician in the group of people I'm playing with, I'll want to be at least one musician to be behind me next time we get together. It brings out the competitive instinct in me....

Three years ago, I was on my way home from a hospital visit and called in a pub on the way home for a quick pint. There was a bunch of guys around my age - 50, plus or minus 5years or so - with acoustic guitars. One person would suggest a song, and the rest would join in. Or at least, some of them. I got talking to one of the guys who I vaguely knew - he passed me a guitar, and I did a couple of songs.

The next week, I took my guitar in. I quickly realised I was WAAAAAY behind the guys in almost everything - it inspired me to practise and work even harder. I'd get home and look up tabs for songs they'd been doing - I'd work on them flat out till the following week.

Now I'm not bragging here, but they've stood still over the past three years - they still play the same songs every week. You try to introduce something new, it's like water dripping on a rock - eventually it'll wear down. In those three years I've worked hard at the music I like - and I've also discovered new genres, new songs, new artists. Not to mention new chords, new riffs, new solos, etc.

Out of the ten or so people who were regulars in that particular jam night group, I'd say I was easily the worst musician of the lot when I started going in there. Now, I'd say I was in the top three - and the top two are real musicians, with about 40 years playing (each) behind them and a lot of time spent gigging, recording and writing. I'm still way behind them - I'll probably never catch them. But there's no harm in wanting to catch up, and trying hard to catch up, is there!

:D :D :D

Vic

"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)


   
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(@danlasley)
Noble Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 2118
 

I just read an interview in Guitar Player with Pat Metheney that speaks to this (ok, I'm behind a little on my Guitar Player reading). I am paraphrasing but he was asked how to become a really good jazz musician. His answer was to always try to be the worst musician in whatever group you are playing with.

That just doesn't make sense to me - if I'm the worst musician in the group of people I'm playing with, I'll want to be at least one musician to be behind me next time we get together. It brings out the competitive instinct in me....

...Vic

If I may make my own interpretation of Metheny's comment, I believe it means that for "next time" you should find the next best group of players, so as you progress, you are always the "worst" in the room.

Unless I'm in teaching mode, I usually play with musicians who are stronger than me, but since I don't invite any other bass players... :twisted: Plus, I usually bring organization and "playing in a group" skills that not everyone has.

Vic, you and Scrybe are better guitarists than Laura or I, but if we didn't fly 3000 miles and bring the songbooks, we'd never have met you or enjoyed that evening.


   
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(@rum-runner)
Reputable Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 424
 

I just read an interview in Guitar Player with Pat Metheney that speaks to this (ok, I'm behind a little on my Guitar Player reading). I am paraphrasing but he was asked how to become a really good jazz musician. His answer was to always try to be the worst musician in whatever group you are playing with.

That just doesn't make sense to me - if I'm the worst musician in the group of people I'm playing with, I'll want to be at least one musician to be behind me next time we get together. It brings out the competitive instinct in me....Vic

I understand your point, Vic. You don't want to exclude people from playing with you just because they are at a lower level of ability. I interpret the above quote as just encouraging people to seek out people to play with who are better than you if you yourself want to improve. And that is good advice- as evidenced by your story. If we all excluded people who are not as good as we are, thaen everybody would only be playing with people who are equal in ability. Eh?

Regards,

Mike

"Growing Older But Not UP!"


   
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(@hyperborea)
Prominent Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 827
 

I just read an interview in Guitar Player with Pat Metheney that speaks to this (ok, I'm behind a little on my Guitar Player reading). I am paraphrasing but he was asked how to become a really good jazz musician. His answer was to always try to be the worst musician in whatever group you are playing with.

That just doesn't make sense to me - if I'm the worst musician in the group of people I'm playing with, I'll want to be at least one musician to be behind me next time we get together. It brings out the competitive instinct in me....Vic

I understand your point, Vic. You don't want to exclude people from playing with you just because they are at a lower level of ability. I interpret the above quote as just encouraging people to seek out people to play with who are better than you if you yourself want to improve. And that is good advice- as evidenced by your story. If we all excluded people who are not as good as we are, thaen everybody would only be playing with people who are equal in ability. Eh?

That was my understanding of what Metheney said. It wasn't to exclude people who were worse players than yourself but to seek out those better than you are. It helps you learn and grow. It can be discouraging at times but it can be very motivating and educational. Do you want to be the big fish in the small pond or the small fish in the big pond?

Pop music is about stealing pocket money from children. - Ian Anderson


   
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 lars
(@lars)
Noble Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 1120
Topic starter  

Hi folks - thanks for reading and replying!!

I've been hiding for a while. Eventually some additional pieces have fallen into place. I know now what I struggle with, and I start to know how to deal with it - I'm trying.

Self esteem is the key. I am good enough regardless of others, I have a value as such, I am me and you can take it or leave, somethings I do are good, other things I have to work on - that's what I keep telling myself. I really work on that. Nothing more than basic personal coaching, but I need it. Somehow, over the years I have forgotten myself, I have let others define what I should do, how good my achievements are, and what I'm worth. I'm done with that. ... I'm not, but I try :)

Well - that's me.
I'm back in the saddle I think -
- working on a few new songs
- will do some work on my old songs in my neighbour's studio soon
- one gig tomorrow, one gig next saturday

Thanks again folks - see you around!

- edit - and that was my 1000th post! :)

...only thing I know how to do is to keep on keepin' on...

LARS kolberg http://www.facebook.com/sangerersomfolk


   
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 Nuno
(@nuno)
Famed Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 3995
 

Greeeeat! :D

And welcome back! We miss you!


   
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