reading music

This topic has gotten alittle off track the orginal post was asking whether it was worth it to be able to read music.

My position is based solely on my personal situation and the reasons I have given and why I choose not to do that. Everyone needs to make the decision based on their own situation.

I do not think being able to read is bad, I think it is good and it is definitely beneficial to know, but that still doesn't change the fact that I don't think it's necessary for me to concentrate on at this time. There would be little benefit. Dave you may call that an excuse but I think it was just a decision I made based on my situation. An excuse to me is a reason you give to avoid doing something that you don't want to do or like to do. The matter of whether I would like to spend the time doing it was never the point.My decision was made because while weighing all the pros and cons I didn't think the effort was time well spent. And I still believe it as I still believe it's nice to know.

There is no denying that having the ability to read music COULD BE valuable in certain situations but my whole argument/opinion was that not everyone necessarily needs to have these skills that's all.

King humor me here. Let's say I ask you to play a piece that you know by heart first reading from the sheet music then playing it from memeory. Would there have been any difference in the way you played those pieces? Would you have played the piece you read more fluently, with less errors, etc? Does reading improve the way you physically play the guitar. I doubt you could honestly answer yes to any of those questions.

If a person can't strum a simple chord progression in time, how would having to read that same chord progression from std notation help them play it better.

I think some of the arguments in favor of reading are as weak as mine may seem to you. Almost everyone has to agreee there are amazing guitarists that cannot read music. That is a fact. IF I take that fact one step further, if they can play that well without being able to read music than the skill of reading music is not directly related to the skill of playing music. And personally I want to develop my skill for playing music, hence I am not spending my time learning to read music. The two skills are pretty much mutually exclusive, you can read music and still play like crap or you can play great and not be able to read a note. So I can't see anyone saying the skill is necessary. It's necessary only in the context of some of the very particular examples that Note and King gave. If you are never going to do those things (Me) then acquiring the skill is only something I would do if I had EXTRA time to devote to it.

With all that said you need to remember I'm not that great of a player. If I were at a skill level that I was happy with I might take some time to learn to read music.

I may cite many "reasons" for my not practicing (or learning to read music or joining a jam or whatever) but the truth is that if I did want to do so, I'd make the time and effort to do so.

What he said; in bold italic underlined capital letters.

A :-)

I may cite many "reasons" for my not practicing (or learning to read music or joining a jam or whatever) but the truth is that if I did want to do so, I'd make the time and effort to do so.

Sorry, but that seems a bit weird. The reason I don't play golf is because I don't want to do that, like some don't want to learn to read. Thats not an excuse but a reason. An excuse would be me syaing I don't have the time to write an article while I'm typing book after book on these forums.
SoI can't help but wonder if the point is might simply be, why should Ilearn to read it, whoever the "I" might happen to be. And that is all about personality and not about either TAB or notation. Someone who doesn't want to isn't going to no matter how compelling the argument might be.

Which is indeed what the first post was all about. :D Some do, some don't, some never will. Some do what they do with good reasons, or fake themselves into (not) doing something they'll regret later.

I think King, David and Noteboat did the right thing with learning to read, and they sure as heck think so to. I think Cnev shouldn't feel bad about having fun without reading music, he thinks so to.

As for elitist attitudes: not referring to anyone here, but I've met people (and I'm sure we all know them) who'll pretend you're utter dirt when you cannot read. Just like people will pretend you're nothing but crap if you don't have a Fender. Or cannot play a LZ solo. Or anything. Learning to read is a skill which some have and some don't. But that skill alone won't make you a superior guitarist, let alone a superior human being.

Alan,

Obviously your one of the people that can read music hence your position.

I realize I can learn to read music if I made time for it. For that matter I could do anything if I make time for it and your agreeing with David's statement which implies a lazyness or lack of seriousness with playing guitar, when in fact that is exactly the opposite.

I made what I think is a very concious decision not to spend my time which is limited, learning to read music. I feel the little time I can devote everyday would be better spend actually improving the actual playing of the instrument, since that's where the rubber meets the road.

I won't deny that learning to read music will make you a more well rounded musician BUT having the skill will NOT necessarily make you a better player....and I'd rather be the later, even if those that can read would call me a hack.

Everyone has to make there own choices and like I mentioned earlier if I were younger I would spend the time. Actually when I first started playing I started reading music and it semmed at the time that my skills at reading music were outpacing my skills at playing music. Now granted I only invested a few months but it was then that I made the decision not to do it.

I will be honest if there wasn't tab around I probably would have done it but tab is good enough for my needs.

OK, OK, you've convinced me!!!! I've been putting it off for god knows how long, always something else cropping up...

QUESTION.....I want to read standard notation, where's a good place to start?

Actually I think that was one of the first questions I ever asked after joining GN....someone posted a link to an Australian site, "jazzclass" I think it was called....

But if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it PROPERLY.... as my old Dad used to say, "If a job's worth doing it's worth doing well"....

Is Noteboat's theory book available to UK members? It's had great reviews, would that be a good place to start? And if it is available, how do I get a copy?

To me, learning musical notation is like learning a foreign language...I learned French German and Latin at school, picked up a little Italian and Spanish since....

But at school, I had set lessons, assignments, homework etc... I'm guessing here, but I imagine for a guy in his late forties, self-discipline comes into the equation in a big way....and I studied for 5 years to get to a reasonable standard of fluency in the aforementioned curricular languages....so let's say I'm determined to learn how to read musical notation, how long is it going to take me to become reasonably fluent? And how much time should I devote per day?

:D :D :D

Vic

I can't really add anything that hasn't already been stated. I did want to add that when I find tab on the net, I put it into PowerTab so I have both the tab and the standard notation (as best I can come up with). It kinda forces me to at least realize what notes are actually being played. Plus the act of plugging it into PowerTab seems to help me understand the piece better as well.

Vic,

The best place to start is method books. I usually use the Mel Bay Modern Guitar series... but if you're already familiar with notation, the Berklee series is also very good (and moves ahead at a quicker pace)

My book explains standard notation, but it won't teach you to read - there aren't any practice pieces, which is what's really required. If you're interested in the book anyway, the best bet for the UK is to message Greybeard here at GN - he's my EU distributor.

I've started outlining a series of articles on reading standard notation, and I've already sent David the first one, so there might be something up here in the future :)

Vic,
The best place to start is method books. I usually use the Mel Bay Modern Guitar series... but if you're already familiar with notation, the Berklee series is also very good (and moves ahead at a quicker pace)

NoteBoat is right on the money. That's exactly how I learned to read music on guitar. I've still got all my old Modern Guitar Method books, and I just re-purchased the Berklee series (you can get all three volumes in one bound book now).

I've met people (and I'm sure we all know them) who'll pretend you're utter dirt when you cannot read

I've met plenty of folks with this attitude, most of whom are not guitarists. When I'm introduced to 'serious' classical musicians (cellists, harpsichord, whatever) and it comes up that I play guitar, there's frequently a slight look of derision as they inevitably ask "do you read music?" I can just see their finger on the trigger to dump me into the 'musician-wannabe' category in their own minds.

When I tell them I can, they're often very surprised.

By the way - I don't think we've touched on this yet - the guitar is perhaps the most difficult instrument for playing from standard notation. We have more choices for producing a written note than others do, and it makes learning more difficult, and reading a lot slower. The pianists/violinists/sax players I know can 'read fly s*** of the wall at 20 paces' as the saying goes. I've never met a guitarist who can match the level of reading ability that's close to the professional standard for other instruments... give me a 'typical' piece, I'm fine at sight in tempo. Give me a bop chart with odd rhythmic figures at 260bpm, and I'll need several run throughs (or I'll simplify/guess as needed to get through it)

In part, this adds to our general reputation as poorly educated musicians - along with the fact that many (most?) guitarists out there don't know much about theory/harmony, think an improvised solo is the be-all-end-all pinnacle of performance, and ignore all the music that hasn't been done on fretted instruments. We tend to be the isolationists in a lot of ways, when most music is a team sport.

I'm oddly inspired so I ordered "Mel Bay's Complete Method for Modern Guitar" from Amazon just now. I'm so new that it wouldnt hurt me a bit to learn how. I'll just add it to the heap.

Geoo

By the way - I don't think we've touched on this yet - the guitar is perhaps the most difficult instrument for playing from standard notation. We have more choices for producing a written note than others do, and it makes learning more difficult, and reading a lot slower.

I just demonstrated to one of my classes how you can play the same note (E - starting with first string open E) on at least five different strings, six if you've go 24 frets...

Another great resource for sight reading is clarinet books...the written range is similar to guitar, starting with low E.

OK, I've been in the process of putting a load of ptb files together for an article on getting to know the keyboard from the perspective of standard notation.

Due to a severe lack of time (most of my posts in the last few months have been made whilst I've been waiting for something else to finish), I've not around to finishing it.

What I have is a lot of files that show, for example, the low E from open to 12th fret, etc. There is also a file which shows all the notes on all the different strings/frets, but that's an image not a ptb.

If anyone is interested, I'll have a look over the couple of days for obvious overlaps and parcel them all together in a zip file, so that they can be downloaded. The only proviso is that you promise to use the standard notation and cover the tab up (after the first day or two) :lol:

Vic, if you want to PM me, I'll sort you out ASAP.

Tom's article should be up in the next week or so. You can also look at the article "Your Very Own Rosetta Stone" on our Absolute Beginners' Page.

And my apologies - I've long since stopped worrying about connotations of words and hence my use of "excuse." I know that for some (okay, most) people, "excuse" is a "negative" word because of the connotation they've learned in life. All I mean is that if you wanted to do it, you could, no questions asked. That's all. To me almost all reasons that people (myslef leading the pile) give for things are excuses. That doesn't mean I think it's bad. It just is.

The real point of this topic is that if you do take the time to read notation, you will find it more useful than you ever imagined. So it truly wouldn't be a waste of time. But, as has been said, it is certainly not necessary. You have to make the decision for yourself.

And the real cool thing about decisions is that you can always change your mind later! Which, come to think of it, may be why so many older folks decide to go back and learn it! :wink:

Peace

Dave,

I totally agree with you 100%.

King humor me here. Let's say I ask you to play a piece that you know by heart first reading from the sheet music then playing it from memeory. Would there have been any difference in the way you played those pieces? Would you have played the piece you read more fluently, with less errors, etc? Does reading improve the way you physically play the guitar. I doubt you could honestly answer yes to any of those questions.

Actually, I can honestly answer yes to these questions.

Just this week I'm working on a chord-melody version of "Georgia On My Mind." I have the song memorized as well as the chord progression. Playing it without the sheet music in front of me it sounds ok.

When I put the sheet music in front of me, I can notice things that I DON'T remember that effects how I play the song. For example, at the end of the 'A' section right before the bridge there's a little chord turn-around. The chord voicing I choose just playing from memoery isn't, in my mind, ideal. When I had music in front of me, I was able to see why it wasn't ideal, and made a chord substitution to better lead into the bridge.

As for errors, I play jazz, so there's no errors, just "unexpected improvisation," but I do find I do that less frequently if I have a lead sheet in front of me . . .particularly for pieces that I haven't played in some time.

Then there's all the 12-bar blues based pieces. A lead sheet gives me a head to put on the music, and my choices of licks is heavily driven by melody considerations that I couldn't possibly remember without the lead sheet in front of me, even though I know the 12-bar blues form like the back of my hand.