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Rhythm vs Lead ( guitar )

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(@rparker)
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Joined: 20 years ago
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Easy to look back on and laugh now. :)

rumrunner, I can easily see all of that. When you're by yourself, you got two weapons at your disposal to "sell" the song. Guitar and vocals. I've done my share of dog-torturing. :mrgreen: Someone on these boards once said that in most cases, the melody is the song.

Roy
"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin


   
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(@elecktrablue)
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And I can't belive the numbers can be attributed to the fact that all these rhythm guitarists don't have the desire to play lead it's more along the lines of they don't have th skill to play leads.

I won't deny that your statement is more than likely true of some rhythm guitarists, however, there are a whole bunch of us rhythm players who have the skills and the proven ability, who simply don't desire to play lead. I am one of those rhythm players. If one of my bandmates told me to take the lead, I did it in a heartbeat, and did a good job of it, but I would be glad when it was over and I could get back to what I enjoy most, which is playing rhythm.

Emmylou Harris has a song called "Rhythm Guitar" and the chorus goes:

She said, Don't give me nothing that I can't use
I've got the rhythm and I don't need the blues
Don't wanna be no shootin' star
Just wanna play on the rhythm guitar

Those last two lines used to be my signature and when I'm finished posting this, I'm going to change it back to that.

..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ .·´
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´ -:¦:- Elecktrablue -:¦:-

"Don't wanna ride no shootin' star. Just wanna play on the rhythm guitar." Emmylou Harris, "Rhythm Guitar" from "The Ballad of Sally Rose"


   
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 cnev
(@cnev)
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I agree EB that for some people that's all they want to do and I don't necessarily think the lead is harder to learn but I do think there are more techniques to learn than playing rhythm in general.

There are times when I enjoy playing rhythm when I can really get into it and there are songs where the rhythm is just some straight forward chord progression that gets pretty boring real quick.

definitely nothing wrong with playing rhythm though

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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(@gnease)
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greg I think you are decribing a situation where a bunch of people are getting together to jam, with multiple guitars etc., as a one off situation but that's different from having a set lineup where there is a rhythm player and a lead guitarist there isn't alot of who's doing what at a particular moment you pretty much know how's playing what and it's the same all the time. Now again I'm more of a note-for note guy and in most songs there is a rhytm and lead guitar even if the rhythym might have been laid done by the same guitarist.

no, I'm not. same thinking and process applies to a solo singer/vocalist situation as a group of players with multiple instruments of any sort. (let's not say "jam" -- that's something else, and requires spontaneous orchestration, if any). the challenges are much the same for taking an instrumentally complex tune and stripping it down for a single guitar player, as taking a simple tune and arranging it for four guitars.

in a band, somebody usually drives the rhythm of any song. however, in many cases it is not and does not have to be a guitar player. bass and drums are often enough, as proven by the many "power trios" of the 60's through 80's. and that leaves the guitar player with the opportunity to do a lot of stuff that is neither strictly rhythm no lead.

-=tension & release=-


   
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 cnev
(@cnev)
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greg yes I agree I guess in my mind in this thread we were specifically talking about guitar driven rhythm. I realize the lines get very blurred between the two and maybe I'm also giving my opinions in the context that I am used to.

Am in what can be loosely called a band and we play covers only covers and as close to the originals as we can play so when I think in those terms your post was talking about a totally different situation. There's really nothing to hash out between the guitar players other than getting each part tight, I mean we aren't improving on the fly nor are we rearranging anything we are playing straight up covers

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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(@gnease)
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consider Chris: you are not the same guitarists that play on the original. even if you are covering as closely as possible to that original, why assume that your sets of capabilities split exactly the same way as the original guitarists? for some tunes, you may find it easier (and overall better) if you two parse the sections according to capabilities instead of what the original guitarists played. it's not always immediately obvious how this might work, but leaving yourself open to the possibilities of redistributing parts throughout the song may be the difference between being able to play it well and not at all. and of course this will only work for some tunes.

I see that some assume a good "lead guitarist" is probably just as accomplished at "rhythm" playing. not true. great abilities to drive a steady, unrelenting pace and/or produce controlled, complex rhythms and/or comp are not necessarily "in the bag" for someone who is brilliant at fills and/or solo lines and/or created improvs. it is possible to master one set of skills without completely mastering the other -- from either direction.

-=tension & release=-


   
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 cnev
(@cnev)
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greg now I'm confused by tyour post;
you are not the same guitarists that play on the original. even if you are covering as closely as possible to that original, why assume that your sets of capabilities split exactly the same way as the original guitarists?

I know I'm not but let's use an example. We are playing the Rock n Roll Animal version of Sweet Jane, there is a disticnt rhythm and then there is the lead(actually two guys playing over each other)

I play the rhythm part probably what lou played it's simple 4 chords. I'm not sure what your statement about capabilities of the original guitarists have to do with whether or not I can play the rhythm.

I think this is way off track from the original post about rhythm being harder than lead and my opinion that it's the opposite if anything.

So are you implying that somehow all the great lead guitarists that I've ever heard can't hold a steady rhythm? How do they play the lead then in free time?

I understand part of your posts were to illustrate how these lines get blurred but just because some rhythm player threw in a single note run here or there doesn't make him anything more than a rhythm player. Little fills and such don't constitute lead they are nothing more than an embellishment.

so the Slash's, Clapton's SRV"S, or Kirk Hammetts or Dave Mustaines of the world can't hold down a rhythm?

I have yet to find or hear of a good lead player that can't hold down a rhythm yet I know many, many supposed rhythm players that can't play a lead to save their lives..How would you explain why that is and not the reverse?

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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(@fibaz)
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Rhythm, lead, guitar #1, #2, #3, whatever the case may be you are making music and I think that's the main point. As far as why "lead" players can usually hold down a rhythm better than a "rhythm" guitarist, well you have to start somewhere. Most people branch out into "lead" after a while. How many people learned guitar as just "lead" guitar? Not too many. But hey it happens.

"Rhythm" guitarists that throw in a walking bassline, a couple of chugs, or a little run are being creative with it and keeping what they are playing more interesting. Adding to it, giving it more of a feel much like "lead" work. So let's not take anything away from "rhythm" or "lead" guitarists. It's the same instrument with a slightly different set of tools in the bag.

I'm with the others on giving the song what it needs to be recognizable all the way around and adding flourishes of your own style. If you want to play note for note, that's cool too. You are playing music.


   
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(@gnease)
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Chris- I worded everything very carefully. note where I use possible and some and similar words. you've picked a song (Sweet Jane) where my advice probably does not apply -- it's not really a difficult tune if you've been playing a couple years. what about something like Sweet Home Alabama, where there are three or four guitar parts and you want to do it with two guitars? you will need to tear it down to component parts, pick the critical pieces and assign -- and it won't look like the original arrangements from the players' points of view. so some songs you may think are too difficult can be approached by dividing parts.

not all good lead guitar players are equally good rhythm players. you've picked names that many happen to know are good at both -- we've heard Clapton do it. Same with SRV. (take your word on Hammett and Mustaine -- as their particular M groups don't appeal ... though IIRC there is that Metallica video of Hammett repeatedly screwing up a relatively simple rhythmic part and Hetfield giving him hell over it :wink: ). Slash is solid guitar player for both, but not brilliant. I doubt I will find many "name" players that are noticeably lacking in rhythm skills -- moreover, they are not likely to play publicly things they have not well practiced. OTOH, I've heard many a semi-pro band having a lead player you'd die to be. yet that same guy ain't got the rhythm chops to do more than 3 or 4 chord rock. and maybe that's fine, but he can't reggae, ska, R&B or even punk like Johnny Ramone worth a damn. there is a lot more to great rhythm playing than what's in 90% of rock tunes. when you get out and jam with a lot of people of different skill levels, you will also notice there is often a disparity between so-called lead (soloing, improv) and rhythm skills. you want to bring some lead players to their knees? have them play some "rhythm" from moderately challenging tunes from Steely Dan, Latin jazz, Yes ... and even Cat Stevens. have them "sight read" through some moderately complicated chord charted songs. problem with those players is all they practice is soloing, because that's the glamorous part. and if you don't practice rhythm enough, it shows. I think I probably get to play with a lot more people than you -- not as many as David, but a lot. so it's part of my direct experience. and I've found myself suffering an imbalance. when I play with groups, I often end up being the guys who takes a lot of solos, as I can improv passably well over almost anything. if I don't make an effort to play rhythm parts that skill begins to atrophy. last summer I headed a set at our yearly jam just so I could play a lot of rhythm.

my real message: respect those guys and gals driving the rhythm, some are far better than you would suspect or likely ever will be yourself. and some of their talents are nothing short of prodigious. if you ask some of the lead gods if they can go toe-to-toe with likes of rhythm aces such as Willy Nelson, Steve Cropper, Cat Stevens, Gary Rossington, Mal Young, Johnny R, Joe Strummer, Nancy Wilson, Woodie, David Knopfler they will tell you about the real talent.

-=tension & release=-


   
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 cnev
(@cnev)
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fibaz said:
As far as why "lead" players can usually hold down a rhythm better than a "rhythm" guitarist, well you have to start somewhere. Most people branch out into "lead" after a while.

Exactly my point. In the natural progression of learning to play the guitar you learn rhythm first and then move on to lead. I know that doesn't necessarily mean lead is harder but it does imply there is "more" to it than playing rhythm and as I posted earlier to EB, I just never heard of someone jumping directly into playing lead without having any sense of rhythm first.

I think there is just more "stuff" to learn and master to play great leads that you don't need to learn/know if you are playing rhythm so it may not be harder but it requires different/more skills.

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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(@gnease)
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how things logically progress is not always how they develop in practice. people tend to specialize and move forward in certain areas more than others. the problem is that a lot of lead players check out of the rhythm hotel at some point and don't look back. check back with me on this in ten years.

-=tension & release=-


   
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(@redbeard)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 47
 

(take your word on Hammett and Mustaine -- as their particular M groups don't appeal ... though IIRC there is that Metallica video of Hammett repeatedly screwing up a relatively simple rhythmic part and Hetfield giving him hell over it :wink: ).

(Disclaimer: This is a youtube clip, and they curse a bit. Follow it at your own risk, I hope this is permissible? *goes to read the rules again*)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=546KjKMB9kw

For your viewing pleasure haha.

At any rate, seems like things are getting a little combative in here. I think the main message everyone is getting at is that "lead" isnt advanced guitar and rhythm isnt for beginners. You dont begin with rhythm and then graduate when you get good to playing lead (necessarily). Theyre simply different skillsets.

Hope you enjoy the youtube clip.

"I just curse the sun so I can howl at the moon" ~QOTSA


   
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(@gnease)
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At any rate, seems like things are getting a little combative in here. I think the main message everyone is getting at is that "lead" isnt advanced guitar and rhythm isnt for beginners. You dont begin with rhythm and then graduate when you get good to playing lead (necessarily). Theyre simply different skillsets.

Hope you enjoy the youtube clip.

not to worry. we're still friendly. I agree with your summary.

(that's the clip! can you add in a parental advisory before the mods pull it?)

-=tension & release=-


   
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 cnev
(@cnev)
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Redbeard,

Not at all I actually enjoy a good discussion on these things even if we see things differently but reading greg's last post I would agree totally with that. I'm not naive enough to think there aren't fantastic rhythm players that can do things with a guitar that would amaze 99.999% of people that only play lead but the problem is those are exceptions and maybe picking those lead players I did were exceptions also.

Greg you obviously have played much longer and have been exposed to many more different genres of music than myself. I can see other music being much more rhythm driven than basic rock but unfortunately that's pretty much all I'm interested in playing so I may have taken a very myopic view of things.

I used Sweet Jane and that particular version as an example because it's pretty cut and dried as do having a pretty disticnt rhythm and lead and that is how we have picked songs so it's pretty easy to figure out who plays what.

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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(@redbeard)
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Disclaimer added before youtube clip, sorry about that.

"I just curse the sun so I can howl at the moon" ~QOTSA


   
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