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Scales, Scales, Scales.....

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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

I'm not sure I understand that question...

In G, the I-IV-V is G-C-D; F-Bb-C is a I-IV-V in F.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@rparker)
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Joined: 20 years ago
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Topic starter  

I'm not sure I understand that question...

In G, the I-IV-V is G-C-D; F-Bb-C is a I-IV-V in F.
Why would it not be a whole note instead of an accidental in F. Why does F have to use a flatted note as it's 4th? Nothing else starts with a whole note and uses an accidental. Then it donned on me. Does the steps in a I-IV-V (or 1-4-5) follow the same rules of a Major scale, or whatever the rule called is that makes it a major scale? The whole-whole-half-whole...... type of thing?

Roy
"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin


   
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(@fretsource)
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Joined: 18 years ago
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Does the steps in a I-IV-V (or 1-4-5) follow the same rules of a Major scale, or whatever the rule called is that makes it a major scale? The whole-whole-half-whole...... type of thing?

Yes. That's what I IV V in major keys means: the chords built on the 1st, 4th, and 5th notes of a major scale.
F major scale is: F G A Bb C D E F
So those chords in the KEY of F major are F Bb & C


   
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(@rparker)
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Topic starter  

And now I'm back in the conversation. Thanks fretsource. So, now I understand one more piece of theory. I still need to dig further to understand the relationships between scales and chords and such, but I have the bit of info that ws causing a disconnect.

I forgot the forum rules regarding dunce cap wearing and duration and such things. I'll have to get a ruling.

Roy
"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin


   
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(@greybeard)
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Joined: 21 years ago
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The major scale is (in intervals) WWHWWWH. Starting at F, we go 2 semitones (W) forward and land on G. Then, we need to go another two semitones, to land on A. The next step is one semitone (H), so one semitone along from A is Bb. Following the rest of the sequence, we get:

Bb - (W) - C - (W) - D - (W) - E - (H) - F

It's shown, graphically, here.

I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
Greybeard's Pages
My Articles & Reviews on GN


   
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(@frankyl)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 44
 

what you can use over an F major chord is the min pentatonic based off the relative minor of F, and the relative minor of F is Dmin. So, you can use a Dmin pent over F major.
Isn't this basically the same thing as saying you can play an F major pentatonic scale over the F major chord? Using the pattern I'm most familiar with for both the minor pentatonic and the major pentatonic, namely this:

E-|---10-----13--|
B-|---10-----13--|
G-|---10--12-----|
D-|---10--12-----|
A-|---10--12-----|
E-|---10-----13--|

that could represent either the D minor pentatonic (if the tonal center was around the D at the 10th fret of the low E) or the F major pentatonic (if it was around the 13th fret), right? Same notes in either the D minor pentatonic or the F major pentatonic, so that's why the relative minor pent works so well - it's really the same as the major pent, am I right?


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Yes, it would be the F major pentatonic. I think the reason Scrybe described it as the Dm pentatonic is that many guitarists tend to think in "fingerings" rather than scales, and it's easier to remember just one set and move it around - you let your ear find the tonal center... so you can think in Dm, and it will naturally come out in F major. (And that's exactly why most guitarists have such trouble using modes - their ears steer them to a different tonal center when they're thinking of modes as 'fingerings' - what they play and what they think end up being two different things)

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@scrybe)
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Joined: 17 years ago
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yup, I was trying to give Roy more material to use his current patterns on before he learns other fingering patterns.

Ra Er Ga.

Ninjazz have SuperChops.

http://www.blipfoto.com/Scrybe


   
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(@hbriem)
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Joined: 22 years ago
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Maybe someone could tell me why playing 12-bar blues in G requires a flatted Iv? So, it's I-IVb-V or F-Bb-C. I see it now all over the place, but do not know why. If I was to say 12 bar in C, it would be I-IV-V or C-F-G.

No, no, no. Sorry Parker but you got the wrong end of the stick somewhere.

12 bar blues (I-IV-V) in G would use G-C-D (or D7). The key of G has one sharp (F#) and the notes G_A_BC_D_E_F#G.

In the key of F, you would use F-Bb-C (or C7). The key of F has one flat (Bb) and the notes F_G_ABb_C_D_EF.

C blues of course, would use C-F-G or (G7) and the key has no flats, C_D_EF_G_A_BC.

Now somehow, perhaps because you're starting with blues which has flat notes, you're getting them mixed up.

Here's a table of the basic major and relative minor keys:
Key Minor Signature 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th
C major A minor C D E F G A B
G major E minor # G A B C D E F#
D major B minor ## D E F# G A B C#
A major F# minor ### A B C# D E F# G#
E major C# minor #### E F# G# A B C# D#
B major G# minor ##### B C# D# E F# G# A#
F# major D# minor ###### F# G# A# B C# D# E#
F major D minor b F G A Bb C D E
Bb major G minor bb Bb C D Eb F G A
Eb major C minor bbb Eb F G Ab Bb C D
Ab major F minor bbbb Ab Bb C Db Eb F G
Db major Bb minor bbbbb Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

Now what is probably getting you mixed up is that blues is neither pure major nor minor. The blues scale is a kind of minor scale (uses a b3 and b7) and also adds the transitory note between 4 and 5 (the b5). So even basic blues uses all the notes of the major scale (in the chords) and adds 3 more (b3,b5,b7). The only notes left out are the b2 and b6 and even those might be used by skilled blues players (I'm sure they are all the time).

In the key of F, Bb is not a flatted 4, it is the 4.

--
Helgi Briem
hbriem AT gmail DOT com


   
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(@rparker)
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This is a lot of information to chew on. I did put together a word doc with a bunch of patterns and notes. I'll complete it when I have more time. I have decided to combine a lot of the advice and wisdom found in this thread.

To start with, I will continue my pattern 1 Minor Pentatonic Scale and also use the Blues Scale whenever I think it works. These kind of just plain fit nicely together. An easy and logical step. I will also learn a Major scale pattern. Why? No good reason other than I just have it ingrained in my head that it's a really basic building block and that I should know it. I'm using the one found in the lower graphic I saw in Greybeard's scale page. (thanks again, GreyBeard!)

After I can do the Blues and Major scale, I will finish the pentatonic scales, one at a time and slowly. At some point, I will be able to tie them altogether and hopefully be able to play in any key, anywhere I want. (yes, I'm sure other sets of scales will allow me the same. I needed to pick one set and that was that.)

And then I'll solve world hunger and come up with a self replenishing energy supply.....

Roy
"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin


   
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(@tinsmith)
Prominent Member
Joined: 19 years ago
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so.....from Major to Minor, the relationship is the 6th. From Minor to major the relationship is flat3rd?

Si?


   
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(@scrybe)
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yup, maj6th and min3rd (or 6th and b3rd), perfectemundo (sp?) :wink:

Ra Er Ga.

Ninjazz have SuperChops.

http://www.blipfoto.com/Scrybe


   
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(@staffan)
Estimable Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 125
 

Hi Roy!

I would suggest you learn all five major/minor pentatonic shapes. This is a good starting point, and from there you can learn how to "add notes"; sharp/flat/natural to build all major scale shapes as well as both the "major" and "minor" modes (by adding 4s/7s and 2s/6s respectively). Of course, this is not my idea, but it comes from a swedish fellow by the name of Dan Lundholm. He has a really good web-site, where this is all explained (in much greater detail): http://www.spytunes.com (hope I don´t break any "rules" of this forum by refering to another site. If so, I guess the admins will remove my post).

I´ve been learning stuff from this site for the past two years or so, and I really like the "concept"! It´s one of my two favourite guitar learning sites (the other one being Guitar Noise of course :mrgreen: - they´re both great in their own ways, me thinks).

Best regards,
/Staffan

AAAFNRAA
- Electric Don Quixote -


   
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(@gotdablues)
Estimable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 129
 

Lots of great info about scales here, ecspecially stuff about 'minor pentatonic shapes',
which Should be studied if you want to ROCK! So....

Study: 5 minor pentatonic shapes
Add blue notes (makes Pent into Blues Scale)
Learn Bending Up to the Blue Notes (again very important if ya wanna ROCK)

Pat


   
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(@tinsmith)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 830
 

I have blues scale chart somewhere too.....If you like


   
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