Should I learn scale degrees or the notes first?

The answer is yes :)

I learned the note names in each scale first, but that's because I learned by reading standard notation from the beginning. Knowing the notes comes in pretty handy.

On the other hand, the guitar is a great instrument for transposition - much easier than something like the piano, where you actually have to think about the notes to move from, say Eb to A. On a guitar, you just move up 6 frets from where you were, and voila. So there's immediate utility in all keys from knowing which degree is where in a pattern - I touched on that a bit in my article on extended chords, and I'll talk more about it in the one I'm writing now on altered chords.

I guess which one is right depends on where you are now. If I have a student from the beginning, they learn the note names first, because I try to integrate everything - reading, chords, improvisation - so they learn the guitar pretty thoroughly in first position before moving up. If a student has been playing for a while without reading standard notation, we do scale degrees for fingering patterns, and I bring in note names with the harmony - focusing on the root tones of the I, ii, iii etc. chords. If you learn all the root names in each key, and you associate them with the scale degrees, you end up with the same understanding - it's just a different path.

Hey Tom, can you explain what degrees are, and how they are used, and why they are important? Thanks

*Now pinch hitting for Noteboat, Undercat!*

Degrees are a simple way to name the scale tones without being specific to the key. It's a way to relate intervals that sound the same without having to just say "they sound the same". Example:

If you're playing in G, B is your major 3rd, if you're playing in A, then C# is your major third. If you look at these two sequences of notes on the guitar, you'll notice that they are the same relative to eachother. We name the distance between them "a Major Third".

This is a natural way to think about the difference between notes, and as far as I know, the only useful way to transpose music on the fly.

Thanks for the input Undercat, but I still dont get it. I'm kinda thick headed sometimes :roll: Guess I need (Degrees for DUMMIES) :shock:

It helps (me anyways) to be seeing it as it's explained but let me see if I can get you a little closer.
e----------
B----------
G----------
D----------
A--2-------
E--3-------

e----------
B----------
G----------
D----------
A--4-------
E--5-------

Foundation block 1 is that though these are 2 different sets of notes, the difference between them is the same. Memorizing what to call that interval is not as important as getting the concept.

One of the great things about the guitar is that because every consecutive fret creates the same difference between them, once you understand this, you can transpose anything extremely quickly.

Here's another:
e----------
B----------
G----------
D---4-6------
A----------
E----------

e----------
B----------
G----------
D---5-7------
A----------
E----------

Again, different notes, same interval.

If you were playing the former, and the band leader said, "Now let's move everything up one half step", you could play the latter and be playing in key.

Does this help?

Here's a fairly complete introduction to intervals. It also goes on to introduce the first few.

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/31

More detailed rundown:

http://www.empire.k12.ca.us/capistrano/Mike/capmusic/Intervals/intervals.htm

Another, more drawn out.

http://www.amadorchildren.com/html/intervals_v.HTM

I learned basic piano in the early 70s, but I didn't learn much about chords beyond straight major and minor triads. I can read simple sheet music, but slowly. I didn't learn about 7ths or extended chords of any kind until learning guitar more recently. But I do find it easy to think of the notes in scales, such as C, F, G, D, E, A... any more than that and we have more black keys than I can remember from that long ago. E was always easy to remember because it went 1 white key (E) two black keys (F#, G#), two white keys (A, B), and finally two black keys (C#, D#) before ending up on that single white key again, E.

At least I have the I, biii, IV, V worked out pretty well. Many thanks for your responses. Please look forward to more strange questions from me! :-)

Thanks for filling in there, Undercat! :)

They're just a different way of labeling. You can think of a scale as 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7 (the harmonic minor as 'degrees') or as C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-B-C (as note names)

They're used simply to identify where you are in the scale.

They're important because you want to be able to selectively change things. Let's say you're rolling along in Cm and suddenly the music says Cm6. Knowing that sixth is A - not Ab - for a Cm6 chord (C-Eb-G-A) can help you know what to avoid, or what to stress.

Knowing the scale degrees for a pattern helps a great deal when you want to alter a chord. If you see C7#11, and you know the degrees:

0 = 3
1 = 1
3 = b7
2 = 3
3 = 1
x

and you that #11 is one fret down from the fifth, you can come up with a fingering for the chord, like this:

0 = 3
1 = 1
3 = b7
4 = #11
3 = 1
x

Knowing both notes and degrees helps in finding a progression. If somebody says 'let's do this tune in Db' and you know it's a ii-V-I progression (scale degrees), knowing you're in Db tells you the chords are Ebm-Ab7-Db.

Make sense?

Degrees are a way of talking about a key, without needing to specify which one. If I talk about the relationship between the root (or 1st degree) and the 5th degree, that relationship is constant, it doesn't matter whether I'm playing in C, F# or Bb.

I could talk about a pitcher, a batter, first base, 3rd base or whatever. The relationships are the same, no matter which team and which players it may be.

If I'm understanding this, then the 1st degree is the same as the 1st tone in a scale, the 5th degree is the same as the 5th tone of a scale and the 7th degree is the same as the 7th tone of the scale. In the C maj scale E is a third above C, so then C would be the 1st degree and E would be the 3rd degree, is that right?

Exactly right

Here's a table that some people have found helpful:

The table shows the scale degrees (any scale) in the top row
and the actual notes in the others.

Key Minor Signature 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
-------------------------------------------------------------------
C major A minor C D E F G A B
G major E minor # G A B C D E F#
D major B minor ## D E F# G A B C#
A major F# minor ### A B C# D E F# G#
E major C# minor #### E F# G# A B C# D#
B major G# minor ##### B C# D# E F# G# A#
F# major D# minor ###### F# G# A# B C# D# E#
F major D minor b F G A Bb C D E
Bb major G minor bb Bb C D Eb F G A
Eb major C minor bbb Eb F G Ab Bb C D
Ab major F minor bbbb Ab Bb C Db Eb F G
Db major Bb minor bbbbb Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb major Eb minor bbbbbb Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F


Thanks for filling in there, Undercat! :)

Truth be told, I just wanted to hear my name over the loudspeaker... :P

Thanks for the chart Helgi, I had been trying to find one like that.