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Urgent question about pentatonic modes

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(@lunchmeat)
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Joined: 18 years ago
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Topic starter  

Alright.

I was reading a thread in the Other Sites section, which linked to the website http://www.ibreathemusic.com . Now it's not a bad site; browsing around the front page, I found an article about pentatonic modes. Getting excited (because I think modes are cool and I use the pentatonic scale a lot) I decided to read it, and I found it to be a complete and utter farce - is it just me, or is this guy completely wrong? Check it out. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/178

He states that the major pentatonic takes out the 4th and 7th notes of the scale; since he uses C major, this is F and B. That's correct, all well and good.

He then states that the minor pentatonic takes out the same notes, F and B, but in this case, it's the 2nd and 6th notes. A Aeolian is the natural minor of C major. That's correct.

However! He then, on a whim, decides to take out the 2nd degree and the 6th degree of each mode. Each mode. This is completely arbitrary, and as a result, he comes up with some weird scales (which may add color and flavor, but certainly can't be called -modes-) and some chords to go with them.

Now, does it not make sense that since the same two notes are taken out of the Aeolian and Ionian modes (minor and major, respectively), regardless of the number within that particular scale, that the same two notes would be omitted from the rest of the modes? (All of the modes, despite having their own flavors, all contain the same notes.) It seems as though whoever wrote the article (I don't remember his name offhand) thought he was on to something grand, but kinda fell short. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that article doesn't make any sense and will inevitably confuse and mislead any guitarist who doesn't know a bit of theory.

Seriously - tell me if I'm wrong. I don't mean to come across as a mean-spirited or nasty person, but I guess I'm just a bit riled because I tried to understand this article, only to discover by actually thinking that it was a crock of onion dip. Other than that, the site is great...yeah, I guess it's time for me to stop typing.

-lunchmeat


   
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(@steve-0)
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Joined: 20 years ago
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I agree with you, it really makes no sense to take the 2nd and the 6th out of every scale :? It is a creative way about looking at scales though even if it's incorrect.

Steve-0


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
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On one hand, he's full of it. On the other, he's totally correct.

The correct part first: the word 'mode' is just an older term for 'scale'. 'Mode' dates back to the ancient Greeks, while 'scale' comes from the Latin 'scala' (ladder)... both words mean the same thing. And since 'Pentatonic' means a scale with five tones, he is indeed making pentatonic modes... as in 'pentatonic scales'. If you say 'pentatonic mode' to a music theorist, he or she understands you're talking about a five-tone scale.

Now for the B.S. part:

Modal relationships between Dorian-Phyrgian-Lydian-etc. were first identified by Glareanus in the 14th century. 'Modes' existed before that - for roughly a thousand years - but they were simply scales, and no one saw any similarities between them. When we talk about modal relationships, we're using the exact same tones, but with a different tonal center; that's the relationship Glareanus identified. Since the 'pentatonic modes' shown in your link do not have the same tones (or even tones the same distance apart), they are not 'modes' of each other.

Now you can create different modes from modal relationships based on the pentatonic scale. The Chinese have been doing just that for a long, long time - their root scale has five notes, while Western scales have seven. And just as we have seven modes, they have five:

C-D-E-G-A = Gong scale (our major pentatonic)
D-E-G-A-C = Quing Yu scale
E-G-A-C-D = Jiao scale
G-A-C-D-E = Zhi scale
A-C-D-E-G = Yu scale (our minor pentatonic)

The Japanese have similar scales, with names like Ritsu, Yo, etc.

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(@alangreen)
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Joined: 22 years ago
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So, he's reinventing the Am pentatonic and calling it something else? Must have too much time on his hands

A :-)

"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
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(@lunchmeat)
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Joined: 18 years ago
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Topic starter  

Yeah, I've always wondered about pentatonic modes, and what to call them - I actually gave them numbers, starting with the major pentatonic. Modes 1 through 5. I mean, I play them all the time - it's necessary, if you want to play a scale up the neck in any location. I knew this stuff in practice, but not in theory.

I realize that I was hasty before...I came off as a pretty arrogant fellow and I didn't want to seem that way. It is a pretty interesting way of looking at scales - I tried some of his scales, and they definitely had a different sound, but I do'nt think they could be called pantatonic modes - I was a bit riled because it's a good site, and an article like that could confuse a lot of beginners. Thank you for clarifying, though, Noteboat - you've got a good rep around here, and that's for good reason. I'll try to remember the names of the pentatonic modes, and try not to get ahead of myself when I see something that doesn't strike me as completely accurate.

-lunchmeat


   
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(@steve-0)
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Joined: 20 years ago
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I realize that I was hasty before...I came off as a pretty arrogant fellow and I didn't want to seem that way.

That's odd, I didn't find you arrogant at all, you seem to have a good point.

Steve-0


   
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(@nicktorres)
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I voted but was I voting no you aren't completely wrong or yes you aren't completely wrong?


   
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(@anonymous)
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I think that is a fantastic article by eric vandeberg.

Moreover its easy to critise rather then write...try someday ( i have actually..)


   
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(@greybeard)
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I think that is a fantastic article by eric vandeberg.

Moreover its easy to critise rather then write...try someday ( i have actually..)
Actually, Rahul, you are spot on. The word "fantastic" is derived from the word "fantasy" and, as Noteboat pointed out, the way this boy builds "modes" of pentatonics IS fantastic (i.e. built on fantasy).
Secondly, it IS easier to criticise than write, in fact, criticising constructively is extremely hard to do well. This gentleman, though, leaves himself wide open to criticism - he gives false information as fact.

I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
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(@anonymous)
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And one good piece of good advice if i may again give is that any query as related to the theory articles by the ibm's authors , it would be better to ask THEM itself.

Eric and Guni are very active on the forums when it comes to your questions on their articles (or music theory in general )

I would say - go there , make a thread , challenge them , put your query about the text and the replies will come (in all good humour)

But if they don't give a solution to your problems or you are totally out of your depths then GN's doors are always open :D

Rahul


   
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(@pvtele)
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Joined: 18 years ago
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This is not as simple as we'd often like it to be - this article http://www.answers.com/topic/pentatonic-scale-2?gwp=19 gives some idea that there's nothing set in stone. However, it still does show that the two (major & minor) basic pentatonic scales are fundamental to most of what we do every day as musicians ;-)


   
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(@greybeard)
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I got this from the Ibm forum.
Anyway, Eric V's article about modal pentatonics isn't about the modes of the minor pentatonic scale... They're about pentatonics (five note scales) that are NOT derived from the minor scale, but from the modes of the major scale (thus, e.g. mixolydian pentatonic doesn't mean the same notes of a minor penta, but starting from the 5th degree, but it is an absolutely different scale. Well, check the article out)
It's a shame that he didn't explain that in the article.

I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
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My Articles & Reviews on GN


   
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(@noteboat)
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Modes aren't simple, no matter how people present them - and in most cases the simpler the explanation (although it may be correct), the harder it is to actually use.

The original article presents some useful information. The only issue I have with it is that it takes the two meanings of mode in music and uses them interchangeably.

In the broad definition of 'mode' - a fixed arrangement of tones - there's nothing wrong with the article. In the narrower definition - a patterned arrangement of intervals created by rearranging the same set of tones - the article isn't correct; the tones produced in the various scales presented do not belong to the same set, and there is no modal relationship between them.

Now it could be argued that the master set of notes he has in mind is the diatonic major scale... that the major/minor pentatonics are subsets of that. In that context, the article makes perfect sense, and is completely accurate... but it's incomplete.

If you want to make a pentatonic mode (as in 5-note scale) from a major scale, you can drop any two notes. Look at the scales tones he gets, keeping the same root:

C-D-E-G-A (missing 4 & 7)
C-D-F-G-A (missing 3 & 7)
C-E-F-A-B (missing 2 & 5)
C-D-F-G-B (missing 3 & 6)
D-E-G-A-B (missing 1 & 4)

I've left out his Phrygian example, because that one (A-B-D-E-G) is simple transposition - it drops 4 & 7 in the key of G.

By comparing his new scales to the standard modes (Dorian, Phrygian, etc.) he introduces some confusion, because those scales have a modal relationship, and his don't. Calling his scales 'modes' is fine; doing it in comparison to the modal scales muddies the waters.

To get a clear understanding of how this article applies to standard theory, you need to understand a few things that aren't presented:

1. A pentatonic scale can be created by dropping any two notes from a diatonic scale. That gives you 42 possible combinations from a major scale. (He only shows five of those)

2. You can treat any note in this new set as the root, the same way you create modes from a major scale, and get four new interval patterns from it. That gives you four new interval patterns from each scale, for a total of 210 different pentatonic arrangements from a diatonic scale and its modes.

3. Some of the results will be identical. He touches on this very briefly, but without explanation - dropping the 2nd and 6th from the Phrygian mode gives you a scale arrangement of 1-b3-4-5-b7 (the minor pentatonic scale), and dropping the 2nd and 6th from the Aeolian mode gives you the same arrangment. That's because the only difference in key between the root scales of C major and G major is the 4th in C and the 7th in G... so if you are dropping tones 4 & 7 from a major scale, the resulting pentatonic scale will be identical in both keys.

There are plenty of other examples where 'guitar theory' just scratches the surface of 'music theory' (Vai's pitch axis theory comes to mind). Maybe it's because most guitarists haven't done formal studies in theory. At any rate, it's fine to find some useful technique from a presentation like this one - but beware of thinking you've learned something that's standard theory, because the labels you'll be using may not match those theorists already apply to other concepts.

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(@lunchmeat)
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Joined: 18 years ago
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Topic starter  

Question - this is something I should kjnow - what does the term "diatonic" mean? I've heard it used many time, not only in this form, but in other places as well. I'm pretty sure my mother has used it more than once, when I'm listening to her (she's a pianist).

The article makes more sense when you take it with the disclaimer written in the forum, but as greybeard noted, it's a shame it wasn't mentioned in the article; if it had been, this thread probably wouldn't have existed. I agree with Noteboat's assertion that the article is incomplete - granted, it would take quite a bit of time to systematically categorize all pantatonic variants of the major scale and their respective modes, but I do think the article could have been clearer.

Rahul, I had considered sending Eric an email about the article, but I wanted opinions first - I figured I was correct, but I am not omniscient, and there are members of this forum who know far more than I. I am only now beginning my foray into music theory, despite my mother being a fairly accomplished pianist. Music comes naturally, to me, but I don't know the science behind it, and I'd like to learn it - but it's only fair that the sources I use to learn are accurate. If and when they aren't, it's only fair that they be constructively criticized; it not only benefits the many readers, but it also benefits the writer. I think I will take your advice and talk about it on the forums, though, but with that disclaimer, I'm not sure if I'll really get through...

MAN, I blabber on. Anyway, yeah, I guess I'll just ask him to revamp his article a bit, create more of an introduction and explanations, so it's not so confusing.

-lunchmeat


   
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(@noteboat)
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Diatonic literally means "through the tones". It comes from the Greek words dia (through, as is diameter - through the circle) and tonos (tones)

Since the musical alphabet has seven names for tones, with the letters A-G, a diatonic scale is one with seven tones, and each tone is represented by a different letter. All the major and minor scales are diatonic.

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