Improv Take 2

You've got some really good ideas, and your playing is getting better & better everythime I listen to you. 8) Keep it up, you're doing great! :D

Dan

I definately like that distotion better than the one you used on SLTS. The playing is getting better. Maybe you should try to stick to a key for lead playing over the top.

Which key do I chose for the lead if the rhythm has no key? That's what I'm stuck on.

There should be a way to do it. People say that theory doesn't restrict creativity. Do I just play leads that aren't based on a scale?

Well every song has a key really, sometimes its just a weird one. What i find is really important for playing lead is melody. You know the little thing you hum any time you hum a song. If you just go a bunch of random places then the melody doesnt really make sense. And your friends dont hum your songs. Learning theory doesnt restrict you at all, its not like it tells you what you must do, it just gives you the basic ideas that all those smart people like mozart thought, gives it a name, and then names a bunch of other ways to make different cool sounds. What makes it fun is that if you learn theory while holding your guitar, first youll look at the book and be like "whatever i dont care what a harmonic minor scale is" but then if you look at the tab and play it, it will sound totally sweet, then if you remember how it sounded, and recognize the same sound in a song later, you will know the perfect notes to make it sound awsome.

If you want to improve your improv you gotta learn the basics. Kurt cobain was freakin awsome, but he didnt do random stuff all the time. When people are "improvising" it doesnt mean that they are giving no thought to where they are going, if they are a professional musician chances are they are actually playing the song. First learn the major and minor pentatonic scales all the way up and down the neck(they both look identicle), cause they are easy to play and fun. And then when you get bored with them you find the you only have to add 2 notes to make a full blown major scale, which is much harder to play because sometimes certain notes sound bad, it all depends on the melody.

http://www.marktiarra.com/music/guitar_lessons.html he explains things pretty well and its free if your intrested, it seems useless and a lot like school at first, but a lot of people consider music an intelligence like math and science.

And at the very least you should find somewhere that has all the scales listed and just try playing them, see what kind of ideas they give you.

Look at air tap http://www.erikmongrain.com/indexeng.asp?Page=Music This guy knows nothing about theory, but he is better then I will ever be so take it all with a grain of salt.

With all due respect, that does not answer my question. I'm not asking or saying should I use a scale. Here's what I wanted to know:

1) What scale do I use over a chord progression that does not stick to a specfic key?

Chords: C5, D5, Eb5, E5, F5, Gb5, G5

2) How do I play a scale pattern in Drop C?

I know you are trying to help and I appreciate it. But I'm not disputing the importance of scales, I just want to know which ones to use.

I see what you mean, picking a key out of those chords just probably isisn't giong to happen. But if some of the chords are just passing chords that you hit on the way to another chord, then you can throw some of those out...maybe that would help you hone in on a key, since you would have less chords to analyze. Also, if you just listen to it and try and figure out what chord the progression "gravitates" to, then you might be peg that chord as the root, then you could play in that key. As to playing the scale in an alternate tuning, it's just a bunch of book-keeping work. Use the scale pattern that you already know together with you're knowledge of which frets are which notes on the guitar to write out the notes in the scale (example: C major ends up being C D E F G A B)...now map out the fretboard in you new tuning (for drop C take drop D and move all of the notes down two frets). Now look where the notes that you wrote down earlier ended up on the fretboard in your new tuning. Mark those frets and there's you're scale pattern in your new tuning. Not very much fun, but a good way to get comfortable with the fretboard, I guess.

EDIT: Or you could be lazy like me and download a program like this one to do all of the book-keeping for you :wink: : http://www.sharewareconnection.com/virtual-fretboard-for-guitar.htm

Which key do I chose for the lead if the rhythm has no key? That's what I'm stuck on.

There should be a way to do it. People say that theory doesn't restrict creativity. Do I just play leads that aren't based on a scale?

Well why don't you pick a key and stick to it to begin with? You've got to walk before you can run.

Which key do I chose for the lead if the rhythm has no key? That's what I'm stuck on.

There should be a way to do it. People say that theory doesn't restrict creativity. Do I just play leads that aren't based on a scale?

Well why don't you pick a key and stick to it to begin with? You've got to walk before you can run.

But she's playing power chords, it is walking, remember? At least that's what people will tell you. It's hard to find a power chord song where all the notes to the rhythm is in one key.

Yeah I guess? :? Power chords and I don't mix. In the end just play what sounds good.

ya trapped its easy to get away with using weird chords with power chords (cause they dont assert much musically with no 3rds or extensions)

Sorry, at the end I was kind of responding to the part about if theory was limiting or not, and it was more in respect to your total journey towards lead guitar not this particular song.

You've chosen to do an unusual chord progression, nothing wrong with that, but because it is not diatonic, any attempt at using a purely diatonic scale (like major or pentatonic or something) will sound "wrong" at times (because it is)

That is the type of progression where the only way I could think to improvise over it, would be to know the entire song ahead of time, specifically know the weird parts.

C5, D5, Eb5, E5, F5, Gb5, G5

each chord only has 2 notes, the 1st and the 5th, for C5 it has a C and a G

So while the C5 is being played, your "safest" notes are C and G. E (the 3rd) would probably be a good one also cause more or less this song is C major. But see if you try to just use the c major scale to improvise, when you got to the Gb5, every time you hit the G and the D in the major scale you will be one note off from the background Gb and Dd it would sound like crap.

Since the only 2 parts in your song that are "out of key" with c major are the Eb5 and the Gb5 AND because they are both only a half step down from a note in the c major scale(E and G), id just remember where they are and switch to a Cb major scale while the rhythm is playing them.

I dunno what "drop C" tuning is, but if you know the notes of each string, the neck extends a chromatic scale up the fretboard no matter what tuning your in, you just gotta write it all out and move the scale shapes to fit your tuning. Since this is all power chords, why not just play in standard (or drop D) and save yourself the trouble?

Oh and even if you do the rhythm in drop C, noone would know if you did the lead in standard tuning, no point in learning how to lead in weird tunings all the time, standard tuning is designed to make it easy to reach any note. I like alternate tunings for rhythm sometimes cause they can give a distinct sound and make a lot of weird chords easy. But the people who really use alternate tunings well design the tunings to fit the songs, not vice versa.

This has probably already been said but to figure out a scale in Drop C tuning you need to know a couple of things. your strings are now tuned to a different note so you start from there and figure out the notes on your new fretboard. Then you need to know the notes in the scale you are interested in. then you need to tab out your new scale up and down the fretboard and learn it. this is probably a good exercise to do, though a pain in the butt, but this is how you learn things on the guitar (the hard way like everyone else!) This is also why it's good to know at least the basics of theory rather than memorizing a pattern.

Thank you for your help all. I'll try the C scale first as Dneck suggested. Might be easiest to use the pentatonic pattern but kinda ignore the 6th string. Though I could play it open......or I download that program Jason suggested. I like taking the lazy way out.

And Dneck, Drop C is CGCFAD, it's one step down from Drop D so you can play power chords with a one finger barre.

I think the pattern for the C scale is:

D|--0--1--|
A|--0--3--|
F|--2--4--|
C|--0--2--|
G|--0--2--|
C|--0--2--|


Is that right?

Like it or not your going to have to apply a little theory. Otherwise your just regurgitating a pattern and you won't know why. Don't be afraid it won't hurt. To see if your right go here Scale Cheat Sheet Enter your custom tuning and lookup C major scale or whatever scale you think you'd need to solo over your progression

Ok I'm really lost here. I look up the notes from the C scale, find the notes on the fret board and have to apply theory.

I'm getting frustrated here. First I ask what scale I should use and get a whole post on why scales are important. Then I look up the scale, ask if it's right and get told I need to apply theory. I am NOT trying to dodge around theory, fight it, fight it's importance or anything like that. What I want to know is the theory I have applied so far correct.

Are my questions hard to understand? Do I need to rephrase them? I know everyone is trying to help, but telling me to apply theory when I went and found a scale pattern doesn't answer my question.

I don't want to sound mean but I don't want to waste your time typing up a long post that does not even address what I am asking. So if there is something that is unclear please tell me.

Is the pattern I posted correct? Yes or no?

No that's not it your close but not quite I've obviously frustrated you and I'm sorry. Unfortunately I'm not a very good communicator so I can't tell how to do what you want to do.