Tight band, but bad PA sound

We practiced this weekend and the sound was really good. The other guitarist left during the week so we are now a three piece. This made the sound much easier to mix though which is one positive. We spent about an hour and a half at the start of practice just on mixing the sound and we just tweaked it a small amount after that. The vocals, guitar, and bass sound real good. I don't know much about the stereo thing, there is one mono out and I can't see and mono switch or anything.

We faced one speaker out and one speaker back as ye said,and it did work well. The only problem we're having is we can't get the thump out of the kick drum we want as it starts overloading the desk.Its not a major problem though. Compared to the sound we had about a month ago its an absolutely huge improvement.Thanks to everyone who gave us tips.

We have another couple of questions:

How would we go about connecting up a seperate amplifier to the sub?

What output of the mixing desk would we connect this amplifier to?

The auxillary out is not powered. Can we connect up a powered moniter to the auxillary as a vocal moniter,or will this put extra pressure on the amplifier? (Is it another 8 ohm load?)

Thanks

Ross

Rossdoc81

Glad to hear your mix is better, sorry to hear your other guitarist left.

It is not surprising that you are not getting enough punch out of that sub. Your powered mixer really does not have sufficient power for it. I would use the powered mixer, one side to power your main speakers, and then the other side to power floor monitors when you pick them up later.

But for now, using one amp for the mains, and the other for the sub is the best you can do.

Does your powered mixer have dual EQ's?? If so, there are some things you can do to improve the performance of the sub with your current setup. Cut all frequencies below 50 Hz and above about 125-150 Hz going to the sub. Just pull the sliders down as far as they go. This should get you at least a 12 decibel cut in those frequencies. Then BOOST the frequencies in the 80-100 Hz range. Push those sliders up a little over the mid point. These frequencies are especially good for bringing out punch in the kick drum. Cutting all frequencies below 50 Hz and above 150 Hz should also conserve power in that amp to go to the sub. So, this should help a bit.

I am not familiar with your powered mixer. But if Auxillary Out is the same as a Line Out or a PreAmp Out, then yes, you can run out from this into another amp's Input. Then use this seperate amp to power your sub.

And yes, you can also go from this Auxillary Out to any powered speaker or powered monitor. It is no load on the powered mixer at all.

This is close to what I do with my own PA. I use a powered mixer to power 2-4 monitors. I go from my PreAmp out into an amplifier that I use to power two Mains and two Subs.

So, it can be done no problem.

Glad that things are calming down. It's a daunting task at first to say the least.

Stereo is bad in a live situation anyway.

Maybe in some situations that is very true but a few years back I was in a band that ran stereo for several reasons. Our band did the smaltz thing. :) Weddings, graduations, "hell of it" parties" singles dances, annual events and anything else we could get booked for.

My Hart drums were stereo and we needed both channels to pan properly as well as maintain the digital effects. Second, our guitarist ran midi so he could play brass for certain songs as well as strings effectively and wanted to maintain those stereo effects. Plus we had a keyboardist who doubled as a second guitar and the bass player had just gotten himself some pedals. Our singer had a Roland Octipad for extra percussion. (We had a mean perc solo in the middle of Black Magic Woman.) So the entire band was playing stereo equipment. We had an awesome sounding system.

Picture this....The band is in their formal tux attire and playing Misty in stereo with a brass ensemble and almost full orchestration out of a guitar and keyboard, the mirror ball is rotating at a hypnotic pace, the couples are in a mesmorizing choreography of graceful to and fro's - stereo wins! :wink:

ULP! Sorry, what were we talking about? :D

Hello, heres our update!!

We had our fist gig at the weekend, we called ourselves Faultline. It went fairly good, all our family and friends were there so the place was full. We made a couple of mistakes early on because of nerves, we knew the songs inside out but nerves just got to us a couple of times. A band played before us and their bassist did our sound so it worked out really well.

Its good to get the first gig over cos we had been practicing for about 5 months so it was all building up to this night(probably why we were so nervous).But its good for everything to come together.

The only problem we are having is that our 600watt mixer is just not powerful enough when it comes to the bass.we have been looking at power amps and we can buy a 2400 watt poweramp for $350, or a 1200 watt for $300.we are plannning on buying another sub when we can get the money together.

Should we get the 2400 watt amp or do we need that much power?

Thanks

Rossdoc81

Glad to hear your gig went well, you should post a report on Gigs and Jams.

I am guessing you are interested in the Behringer amps looking at the specs and prices. :D

Get the 2500W amp. I own one of these, the EP2500. It is a good amp with lots of power. You can never have too much power. The more power, the cleaner the sound. It allows you to get volume without the amp distorting. And just $50 more. So get the more powerful amp.

These amps have some nice features for bass. They have a selectable either 30hz or 50hz cut. Often, frequencies below this just muddy up your sound and cause a low irritating hum that is really distracting. But with the low cuts, you can get a good, low, solid bass that isn't muddy.

I use one side to run our mains, I use the 50hz cut for this. I use a crossover at 125hz that sends the mids and highs to the mains, and the lows to the subs. But the cut just makes more certain that lows stay out of the mains. And then I use the 30hz cut on the side running our subs. This keeps the super lows out that just muddy your sound.

Congrats on the gig, and keep us updated on your sound as well.

Rossdoc81.

Glad to hear the gig went well.

Keep up the good work and keep the reports coming. :wink:

Hello,

Thanks for the support. We have ordered the poweramp, its not bedringer though its from a German mail order http://www.thomann.de.They are the guys we are ordering all our equipment from. Its their own brand of poweramp, they are supposed to be fairly good and the price was real cheap - €300, bout $350. i posted the specs below if anyone wants to have a look. We don,t really understand alot of it so if someone could explain anything it'd be cool!!

t.amp TA2400 II,
Power Amplifier, 2x1200W/4Ohm,2x650W/8Ohm, 19", input sensitivity 0.775V, SlewRate60V/µs, Dampfing Factor: 500:1/1kHz/8Ohm, short circuitprotected, Limiter, THD<0,05%/1kHz, 2HE., In: Jack+XLR,Out: Speakon+Binding 23kg

We have gone round to all the bars we know that have bands and we have 5 gigs in february, the next one is a week from friday in a small place, but the one after that is in a place that can hold 600-700 people. Don' t know if we will be ready for it, our bassist just went in and asked and they said ok, but playing a place that big in our third gig is gonna be daunting!

We are going to make 1500 from these gigs so are looking at putting this all towards equipment so we have a few more questions.

We have two spare 10 inch EV speakers and want to use these as moniters. we are going to run these from the auxillary wnich is unpowered.

1. What should we put through the moniters (vocals, guitar...)?

2. What wattage of poweramp do we need to run these 2 moniters?

3. Will a distorted guitar or bass guitar damage these speakers since they are only 10 inch?

4. Is there anything we need to know about buying a crossover? Can you reccommend any?

6. We are going to buy a second sub and use the 2400 watt amp to power them. What is the differance in sound between a 15 inch sub, and 18 inch sub? Do we need to buy an 18 inch sub?

7. What wattage amp do we need to power the tops, they are 2 Yamaha S 115 v.

Thanks to all who have helped us out!

Ross

Rossdoc81

Glad to hear your band is doing so well. You guys are real go-getters.

It is a little difficult to figure out how to best use your new amp. The problem is that sub you have. It is stereo and operates at 400W @ 4 ohms each side.

The problem is your new amps specs say this amp will operate at either 4 ohms or 8 ohms per side. There is the problem. If you used one side of the amp to power both sides of the sub, that would be a 2 ohm load. That is too low for this amp. It could quickly overheat and damage the amp.

If you have not already ordered this amp, I would advise you to get an amp that will safely operate at 2 ohms, like the Behringer EP2500 I spoke about. Then you could use one side of the amp to run both sides of your sub. Each side would get 600 watts each. It is normally recommended to double the rating of your speaker. Most would advise to get an amp that would provide at least 800 watts to each side of your sub. But 600 watts is pretty good as long as you don't crank the amp to max and clip it. Clipping will damage your speakers.

You could use both sides of this new amp to go into each side of the sub. Then each side will get 1200 watts @ 4 ohms. This is plenty of power. You will get all the bass this sub could possibly provide.

Does this sub have the ability to run in mono? If so, I would run it in mono. Stereo does not really work very well for live applications anyway. And how much stereo effect can you get from speakers that are only a few inches apart anyway??

Here is what I would do, I would use one side of this amp to power ONE SIDE ONLY on your sub. This will provide 1200 watts to that side. Then, I would use the other side of your amp to run the two Yamahas. These are 8 ohm speakers, so in parallel that makes a 4 ohm load. Your amp will provide 1200 watts to the Yamahas. Each individual speaker will get 600 watts. This is very good, lots of power. Then I would use one side each of your powered mixer to power the two EV speakers. They will get about 70% of 340 watts at 8 ohms or 238 watts each. That is very good too.

Since the bass player already has his own amp, I would send only vocals and guitar through the monitors (and maybe a little kick drum). Keep the bass out of the monitors. It will muddy your stage sound and suck up all your power too. You will easily hear the bassists amp on stage anyway.

A crossover simply splits the sound into seperate frequencies. Most crossovers will divide the sound into lows, mids, and highs, giving you the ability to select which frequencies go where.

I own a Behringer CX2310 crossover and think it is fantastic. It really works well and the cost is unbelieveably low. Yes, I like Behringer. :D

Behringer CX2310

I am 100% satisfied with this crossover and would recommend it to anybody. It is really good.

You simply come out of your mixer into the crossover. On the back of the crossover you send the lows to the side of the amp to power the sub. You send the mids and highs to the side of the amp used to power the Yamahas. This will get you great sound and also get the most out of your amp.

Everybody is different, but I use 125 hz as the crossover. So everything below 125 hz goes to the subs, and everything above 125 hz goes to my main speakers. This is a very popular crossover point.

Another option is use each side of your new amp to run each side of the sub. Then use one side of your powered mixer to run the Yamahas. They will get 170 watts each. That is not too bad. Then use the other side of the powered mixer to power the two EVs. They will also get 170 watts each if they are also 8 ohm speakers.

This actually might be the better way to go if big bass is so important to you.

Rossdoc81

I forgot to answer your question about subs.

First of all, I am not too crazy about that stereo bass cab you have. It is pretty useless. You are not going to get stereo effect from speakers 6 inches apart unless you stick your head against the speaker grille. :roll:

Trade that in on a 8 ohm sub if your want two subs. Then pick up another 8 ohm sub for the other side of the stage. Then you can use just one side of your new amp to power both subs. They will get 600 watts each. That is pretty good. You will get plenty of thump.

As far as 15" versus 18", 15" probably is tighter and more focused, 18" is deep. So it is up to you and what you are after.

And as much as you and the other guitarist have these nice PODs with all the stereo effects, stereo is almost useless in live gigging situations.

Think about it. If you have sound coming out of one speaker on one side of the room, the only people who will hear it are the people on that side. The folks on the other side will not hear it at all. So most pro soundpeople will tell you NEVER to run stereo in live applications. That stuff sounds great in headphones and in your bedroom, but does not really work in a big room full of people. Go mono.

Hello!

We got the power amp the other day and used it in practice, the kick out of the bass drum is alot bigger just through the two 15" Yamaha's, although the limit light on the mixer is still lighting up. We have given up on the KME stereo sub!!

We have ordered MORE stuff - an 18" Yamaha sub and a crossover, the crossover is that German companys own make and its only €61 ($50) - which seems real cheap, maybe too cheap but we'll give it a go.

We now plan to run from the mixer into the crossover, and run the bass from one poweramp channel to the 18" sub (thats 650 watts into 8 ohms), then run the highs from the other poweramp channel to the two 15" Yamahas(thats 1200 watts into 4 ohms).

Is this the best way to set up what we have got?

Will a 650 watt kick through one sub be enough?

We have a gig on friday in a battle of the bands playing an hour set, then we are playing in a town near us on the saturday on our own - it'll be our second real gig. we know alot of people going so it should be cool.

There seems to be no end to the amount of gear you could buy, there always seem to be something else, or something that will make the sound better. We are not planning on buying any more stuff for a while or we will all be broke!!

Oh yeah, the limit light on the mixer is still coming on due to the bass drum, do we need to pay attention to the limit light since we are not using the amp, or could we still damage the mixer?

Thanks

Rossdoc81

I like what you are doing now. 1200 watts to the mains, each speaker will get 600 watts. That's plenty of power for your mains. 650 watts to the sub is good too. I run two Behringer subs off one side of a Behringer EP2500 amp. They are 8 ohms each, so they get 375 watts each. They are rated 400 continuous. Some would say this is way underpowered, but we get plenty of thump out of them, I don't even have to crank the amp. So you should be fine.

Go out of the mixer into the crossover. I set the crossover at 125 Hz. I got this figure from experienced sound-people who know their stuff. Some go a little lower, some a little higher, but generally this is an excellent setting. You should have lows, mids, and highs outputs on the back of the crossover. Send the lows to the side of the amp powering the sub. Send the mids and highs to the side powering your Yamahas.

Some other advice I have learned from soundpeople: For kick drum, push up 100Hz a little on your eq. Also push up 3-4kHz a little on your highs. This will give you a very punchy kick drum.
It is also good to cut all lows below 30Hz. These super lows will just muddy your sound. Many times you will hear a very low bass hum or howl below everything. You can get rid of this by cutting your lows below 30Hz.

Many amps have low cut filters built in. Look at your manual. There may be little switches on the back of the amp that allow you to engage the low cut filter. If so, use 30Hz for the sub, and maybe 50Hz on the side going to the Yamahas. This will reduce low end rumble and also conserve much power. Bass eats lots of power.

It is not unusual for the clip light to blink with the kick drum. That is ok, but you do not want this light to be on steady. On the channel mic'ing the kick drum turn bass up (listen to it), mids down low, and highs up just a little. This will get you a good solid thump.

Yeah, buying PA gear is endless. But it is a lot of fun building your own system and learning how it all works.

You should look into a dual 31 band eq next. This allows you to really fine tune your sound, it also allows you to get maximum volume without feedback.

For your gig, just place the one sub in the middle.

By the way, Yamahas are excellent speakers, you will sound good.

Here is a page with suggested eq settings for drums.

Suggested Drum EQ settings

Lots of good info here.

Hello,

Just thought I'd post an update cos i haven't posted in ages, have been meaning to but didnt get rouund to it!

Anyway we have had 5 gigs since I posted last and our equipment is still the same - mixer into the crossover, bass from one poweramp channel to the 18" sub (thats 650 watts into 8 ohms), then highs from the other poweramp channel to the two 15" Yamahas(thats 1200 watts into 4 ohms).

It sounds very good, I cant believe the differance in our sound now from our sound when we started about 6 months ago. We knew virtually nothing when we started, but we're now starting to get to grips with the live sound thing - theres alot to learn!

The places we have giged have varied from a bar that holds under a hundred to a place that holds about 500. The setup we have was perfect for the small to medium places, but in my opinion not big enough for places above about 300. We really need another sub for those gigs (that would be 1200 into 4 ohms, as opposed to the 650 into 8 ohms we have now), but since we bring our gear around in two cars , a second sub is just too big to bring around. We also have only miced the snare and the bass drum - even for the bigger gigs.

We were messing round with micing the toms in practice and can get a fairly good sound with one mic between the mounted toms and one over the floor tom, just under the ride. So for bigger gigs anymore we will mic the toms too.

Our next gig isin't untill the 30th April so we'll just be practicing till then. It should be a good gig though cos its on the sunday of a holiday weekend - everyone is off work on the monday, so there should be a good crowd there.

Thats all I can think of right now, I' ll keep ye posted on how we're getting on.

Ross

Rossdoc81

It was good to hear from you. You know, this sound stuff is an individual thing. Every band plays differently and has different instruments. So advice is helpful, but you really end up having to figure out the best setup and settings for yourself. And it sounds like that is what you are doing.

Sounds like you could use another amp. I have read that the best way to figure the power you need is to multiply .8 and 1.25 times the "program" power. This gives you the optimum and recommended range of power needed. It is neither underpowering or overpowering the speaker. I am assuming that you have the Yamaha SW118V Sub. This particular sub is rated at 600 watts program. So you would need an amp that provides 480w to 750w at 8 ohms to each speaker or 960w to 1500w at 4 ohms if you run them in parallel (daisy chained).

Thanks again for updating us. Sounds like your band is doing real well, and that you are also learning alot about running your own sound.

Keep us informed. :D