Tube amp sweet spot vs. volume?

Or you can buy or build a sensible amp with <1W power if you want to crank it around the house without an attenuator.

I have not found any around to buy for a reasonable price .. are there some? Or maybe some kits? I have not actually searched around for those.
That's a big problem. If enough people let the amp builders know there's a demand, they'll build them, just as there is now a plethora of simple 5W amps on the market after the Epi Valve Junior became so successful. Look on http://ax84.com/ and http://amptone.com/ for low power tube amp info.

It's not rocket science to design your own low power amp, actually.

I don't think solid state amps sound better at low volumes than tube amps necessarily, but what many people are looking for with tube amps is the output stage distortion when cranked that's hard to duplicate with SS equipment, and if you turn it down that's not there. But I play with tube amps turned way, way down all the time, perfectly happily. That's why they have volume knobs. I don't have my car's gas pedal all the way to the floor most of the time, either.

Here is a good video of the 5 watt Epiphone Valve Jr head. You can hear the amp start going into tube saturation at about the 1:30 position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8eZMjYhJMM

At the end of a solo he shows something very important. He sets the volume at 12 o'clock position. By playing lightly he can get a clean tone, by increasing his picking attack he can cause the amp to breakup. This is a feature of tube amps. Many players actually control the amount of overdrive simply by using picking attack.

That is really sweet when you can run in that range where you play clean or distorted depending on playing dynamics. If you have a big amp, it's hard to do that around the house. It's hard to do that around the house with a 5W Valve Junior with its 8" speaker, because it gets pretty loud.

http://www.amazon.com/Blackheart-BH1H-Killer-Guitar-Attitude/dp/B0013O95GW
http://www.guytronix.com/
http://ax84.com/index.php/oldprojects.html?pg=legacyprojects&project_id=firefly
http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2003/Little-Lanilei-Quarter.html

Greybeard,

Thanks for the pointer on the blackheart killer ant. I have not seen that before. From searching around, it looks like it is a new product, and I could not find any online reviews. Still pondering whether to pull the trigger or wait a little bit to hear some things about it ..

Here are some videos on the Blackheart Killer Ant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LODn9T4RozU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMBQqv8LJRU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FZsFWO_0IE

Thanks, Wes! It sounds pretty impressive in the demos.

BillyBoy
But if you are into Tom Scholtz's type tone, that is ALL preamp. That is not what tube saturation sounds like.

It's all getting much clearer, what tube amps sound like cranked (pre-amp, output, or both).

Your right, apparently tube saturation is not what I'm looking for. But... why does my Rockman sound so friggan good through my JC with a little JC chorus? :shock: Full, thick, and hard. But not over the top like a cheesy distortion or fuzz pedal. Sounds perfect playing anything from Beatles to Tool with a bit of gain adjustment on it. (I'd stick with it but the thing is ancient and when it blows, its over.)

I've two pedals, a Rat2 and an analogman TS9 (which I LOVE for lighter blues, etc...) Do I just need to experiment with more distortion pedals?

Great info on tube amps. I'm still going to get one to play around with but obviously will be down-sizing :D

cheers

Your Roland amp is very similar to a PA system. It has an exceptional clean channel that does not distort the signal coming into it. That is why your Rockman sounds so good. It you were to run that Rockman directly into a mixer board on a PA system it would sound just as good. In fact, many players today do not even use an amp to gig. They just take a good multi-efx pedal and run it straight into the PA mixer. With cab simulations they can sound like they are playing a huge stack.

Often when you use one of these modeling multi-efx pedals you have to turn off the cab simulations to sound good because they get distorted by the amps overdrive. So, they will keep the distortion and modulation effects like chorus, but turn off the cab simulation.

No tube amp in the world is going to sound like that Rockman without a pedal. Tube amps get great overdrive, but not modern distortions. The Peavey 5150 might be an exception, it gets insane distortion. :shock:

But you know, the older you get, and the longer you play, the less you go for those hyper distortions, and the more you go for good ol' tube overdrive. Wait and see. :wink:

Very true. And the more you recognize that much of the "classic rock" was played very clean but cranked to the point the power stages were clipping.

Don't get me wrong the tube angle is something I'm already diving into :) The more I listen for the 'tone' in all the standards the more I hear it. And like I mentioned I've played a few at GC and have read Dave Hunters Tube Amps cover to cover a few times. Besides a wealth of other info and tips, he made the same point everyone here has - don't be afraid to down size. (Can't say enough about that book. Went from knowing next to nothing to being able to walk into GC and be confident in asking some decent questions..)

Back to distortion..

My TS9 sounds incredible for lighter stuff. The Rat2 is rather harsh. To perpetuate the myth I'm obsessed with Tom Sholtz heres a sample. This guy mounted the guts of a Rockman in another unit apparently. Check out the 1:04 to the 1:30ish mark. The original unit has a gain control on the back - if you tone it down it's not quite as harsh as this and a little more subtle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tIrvTf3Jco

It's all subjective but what I hear is a thick, generic distortion that sounds pretty good for playing anything like ACDC, GnR, Rush, Metallica, etc.

Really curious what other peoples take is on the sound? Crap? :D

Ah, the oldies are taking a shot at the youngen's ;)

Obviously it's all a matter of preference. I think just like the more blues you listen to, the more you recognize good tone, and the more jazz you listen to it's the same thing. The same thing happens with distortion and heavier music. The distortion I thought was good when I started playing, sounds absolutely horrible to me now. It might be my ability, but I cannot get pedal distortion to sound anywhere near as good as a good amp distortion.

Don't let these classic rock guys fool you, distorted tone is just as diverse as tweed tone, or blackface tone, etc.

Really curious what other peoples take is on the sound?

Scholz was way ahead of his time; just didn't do a good marketing job. Someone with distribution muscle like Korg or Digitech or Roland should buy the Rockman rights and come up with a "Boston pedal." 8)

Ah, the oldies are taking a shot at the youngen's

Not really, I used to own a Rockman many years ago. It was alright for what it was, a portable little headphone amp. I liked it. I accidently ruined it by buying a 9V adapter for it. It wasn't marked whether center post was positive or negative, so I just took a chance and guessed. Can't remember what I went with for polarity, but it was wrong and ruined it instantly. I had even bought some very small powered speakers from Radio Shack and used to play it through them. Sounded good.

All I was saying is that the longer you play guitar, the more you come to appreciate the sound of a good guitar through a good amp without all that hyper distortion and effects. Everybody is different, but most players grow out of that stuff. Even Hendrix, you listen to his last albums before he died and he wasn't using all that Fuzz distortion.

And you heard all the kids screaming that Metallica sold out a few years back because their music style changed. No, they just got older and got tired of playing power chords with distortion all the time. After awhile you actually become a musician and the MUSIC becomes important, not the testosterone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgiGrXpOhYg

Still plenty of great overdrive in their music, but now they play some chords with more than two notes.

I know what you meant, I was only kidding ;)

I do however take mild offense to you saying metal music is only for testosterone crazed young people. It's just a genre that usually has an acquired taste. Most people don't like metal the first time they hear it, just as most people don't like jazz the first time they hear it. Good metal has some of the most advanced song structure, and technically proficient playing of any genre out there currently.

Saying that metal is for testosterone crazed kids is like saying classic rock is for 65 year old hippies as we both know isn't true :)