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(@vic-lewis-vl)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 10340
 

This I scratch your back you scratch mine means what? That I'll tell you your stuff is good if you tell me my stuff is good.

I didn't phrase that too well, that's actually the opposite of what I meant! No, what I was getting at, there are some people in the Hear Here forum who post songs of their own but never say anything about anyone else's work. That, to me, is all take and no give. On the other hand, there are people who don't post songs, but do give advice and criticism. It's good of them to take the time and trouble to listen. There is a happy medium - if you expect people to give feedback on your songs, or lyrics, or whatever, then take the time and trouble to give your HONEST opinion on theirs. Give and take.

:D :D :D

Vic

"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)


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 cnev
(@cnev)
Famed Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 4478
 

Vic and Barn,

I understand what your saying now and yes I agree. You get back what you put in. Alittle differnt twist from my original question regarding the "type" of comments made.

Let's just let this one die as it's no use beating it to death. My original comments were just my observaton of how people commented on others music not necessarily that I wanted anything to change or was I advocating bashing someone for the sake of bashing them. I just thought that most comments are predominantly on the positive side which seemed a bit unnatural.

Nuno,

I have a little bit of a difference of opinion on your comment. If your playing a cover you should if yopu play along with the CD you should be able to tell if your playing in time and playing the right notes, sure maybe it's hard to hear a off note here or there but you should surely be able to tell if your playing in time. Am I missing something here?

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


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 Nuno
(@nuno)
Famed Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3998
 

Ok, we try to close the opinions. Perhaps if I explain my own case it can be done.

First, I agree, if you are playing a cover you are able to detect if the notes are wrong (I said that as well) and if you are in time. In my case, I played the correct notes and the time was good.

The advices and comments were, in summary, "put some feeling when you play, your music sounds plain" and a list of recommendations by each member. When I did read those comments I detected the "lack of feeling". Previously the original track and my cover sound similar to me. Simply I don't search problems in aspects I didn't know.

Also, I followed a very personal procedure for my first recording: first the lead guitar against a metronome, second the rhythm guitar ("pursuing" and not "accompaining" to the lead ), then the bass and finally the drums. Some members told me: "Ok but I use an inverse order, it is easier". And, yes, it is muuuuch easier!

Concluding, any beginner can detect troubles in some aspects, sometimes in the notes, sometimes in the timing, sometimes in the rhythm or strumming/fingerpicking pattern, but there are some things that, as beginner, he/she doesn't know. Probably a teacher could explain better the idea.


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 cnev
(@cnev)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 4478
 

Nuno,

I hear you. I did happen to listen to what you posted and it was pretty good and in a situation like that then yes people were offering ways to improve it etc.

I kind of sorry I opened this can of worms but what if everyone had just told you Nuno that's nice? Would you have learned anything? Probably not.

As beginner I'm sure it's nice to get some feedback on what your doing especially if you don't have anyone else to give it to you.

I by no means meant to discourage people from posting their music.

chris

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


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 Taso
(@taso)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2852
 

I thought your name was Babs.

http://taso.dmusic.com/music/


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 Nuno
(@nuno)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3998
 

I kind of sorry I opened this can of worms but what if everyone had just told you Nuno that's nice? Would you have learned anything? Probably not.
Ok, I agree. But it was not my case and neither a lot of cases. Perhaps it occurs with advanced members' posts but I think there are comments even in those cases. Really I don't remember a post without a comment. I'm here less than one year.

And, furthermore, I think this site is as other sites, virtual and real world. When the question or topic is "easy", the people answer. I said "easy" but it is not so easy, I mean you don't need a special preparation: to listen and to give the opinion. You proposed an easy topic, and very interesting also, on the used pick up. It is also easy to answer: if you play an electric you know which config uses and why. I remember I posted a question on pick ups and amp knobs in the beginners' forum because when you are a beginner you are not able to distinguish the tones (at least in my case). Probably there are a lot of people reading that thread, note everybody is describing his/her sound with his/her setup. I'm a LP user but if I buy... I mean, when I buy my Strato I'll review the thread looking for setups and tones.

Some examples of "not easy" questions or topics: questions on specific gear, if you don't have that gear, you can not answer; questions on theory... there is an active post by Paul (pbee) on chords, how many people can answer it? I did read the original question, I was thinking and reviewing some books trying to help and... I did read the answers because I didn't know it.

And, yes, I wouldn't learn anything but and my ego?


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(@ricochet)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 7850
 

I've often posted "That's nice!" sort of comments on folks' playing when they didn't ask for or aren't on a forum where they expect constructive criticism. I want to encourage them and sometimes criticism can be taken wrong, so I think I ought to be careful about that. But if I say "That's nice, I like that!" I generally try to mention something in particular that I like about it. For that matter, I do the same if I see a professional after a show. Instead of just "That was great, man!" I'll probably say "I really liked..." Many folks who've been on the road performing for years will light up and beam when they hear someone heard, understood and appreciated what they've been doing.
:D

And by the same token, I'll bet musical celebrities never entirely get immune to the criticism from folks who just say "That sucks!" I got to feeling a little guilty about the "Which bands/musicians don't you like?" thread. Ought to be more clear about which works I like or don't, and why. I'd hate for Geddy Lee, Neil Young or Bob Dylan to cry himself to sleep just because "Ricochet doesn't like me!" (Never know when they're on here reading this.) And it's good to be considerate of their fans' feelings, too.

"A cheerful heart is good medicine."


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(@gnease)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 5058
 

I really disagree about the "pc" culture of the "Hear Here" forum. Rough criticism in that forum really helped my playing a lot. When I posted my first cover of Layla, man, I got torn into. You can still see the thread there actually, and it helped a lot.

There are a few posts where people just go "great job", and when I listen I hear out of key playing, and stuff that can be improved on, but I always speak up, let the poster know what I hear, and they can take or leave my advice. One member who was really good at this, at being totally honest, was Hueseph, but he doesn't come around as much anymore, unfortunetly. .

You are right about Hueseph -- one of the more honest and constructively critical reviewers in HH. I don't get to HH much any more because it takes a lot of time to listen and thoughtfully comment. But I will say, Taso, you are one of those players we judged to be more interested in learning to play than in getting an ego boost. That has always made giving you constructive criticism a worthwhile endeavor. And you have gotten good -- in part because of your willingness to listen and work hard on those pointers. Arjen is another developing success story, though maybe not as much due to the feedback as pure, relentless motivation and creativity. And to be sure, there are others; but you guys have been around GN and working on this a fairly long time -- from well before the inception of the HH section. You both have used it well. It's great to see such development.

-=tension & release=-


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(@rgalvez)
Honorable Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 718
 

The reason you don't see posts that go "I don't like it" is because posts like that serve no purpose; what does that do for the composder? Much in the same way the thread about artists that "I don't like" could serve no purpose, other than to offend people who feel invested someway in these musicians.

I agree - if you want to talk about which bands suck, GN is not the right forum, as someone else said, there are plenty of other forums like that. Honestly, I participate in a few other forums, and I find extremly bad attitude from the posters, it seems after a while they end up lacking basic human communication skills, instead of the welcoming friendly attitude you find at Guitarnoise.

The moderators know what they are doing, that thread WAS getting ugly. From the first post really, I said to myself "this one won't last" and after a while here you can just tell. Someone will make a comment about a band that isn't based off fact, someone will defend said band and it will progress.

edit: Margaret - jinx.

I created the 'I don't like this artist' thread because I thought it was really interesting way to share opinions about why we don't like these artists. It was not the intention to say : Rush sucks and I don't care!...and everyone loved it (even though I felt ashamed at the beginning of starting this dynamite)..Elektra and Nick participated and ol' Musenfreind said it was a pity to close it, because it was an excellent thread! what happens is that yes, I agree ,some people attacked the others instead of making a funny thread, which it was in the 90% of the posts....well, at least now we know many people don't get Grateful Dead ;)))


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(@rgalvez)
Honorable Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 718
 

By the way mods, this thread should be moved to the Opinions and Polls Dept? :)


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(@musenfreund)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 5134
 

I think you said it well. It started out well but got a bit sticky toward the end. If I recall correctly, you gave some guidelines about how to post to the thread when you started it. Unfortunately, sometimes the original intent gets lost as a thread grows -- and the thread attracted a large number of posts.

(I think this thread's in news because it started out as a statement of information to the board though it has become a discussion. For the time being, I think I'll leave it here.)

Well we all shine on--like the moon and the stars and the sun.
-- John Lennon


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 Taso
(@taso)
Famed Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2852
 

First off, Scott, want to apologize for this thread going in such a strange direction. We're all sorry that you are leaving, and we hope you come back at some point. The good news is, maybe you're helping to faciliate some sort of change here at GN :)

Greg, thanks for the kind words, sir. You're one of the 'tell it like it is' musicians, and you've got the experience to be able to see what is wrong with every recording, something most of us at GN don't have. I think if guys like you, David, Nick, Tom, and Hue were frequent posters in the HH it's ability to help teach would increase greatly. But alas, it takes time, and we all have lives outside of GN - well, except Nick, who I'm convinced is one with GN, much like Neo and the Matrix. There ARE great posters in HH, but it needs more I think.

Cnev, you make some good points, like I said, I do agree with you to an extent. There are useful tips given, but not nearly as often as their should be, and too many replies offer praise when it would be more beneficial offer constructive criticism. But since you've sort of, brought it out of the cloest (that IS an expression right?) I've noticed, just in the past day or so, more honesty and less buttering up than there was.

It'd be great if that trend continues.

Good job to both of you, Chris and Scott.

http://taso.dmusic.com/music/


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(@rocker)
Noble Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1136
 

This is mine and argens fault, we had a pretty heated debate going, but at no time did either one of us resort to threats or namecalling in any way shape
or form, nor do i think it ever would have came to that, i didn't think either one of us posted anything that was bad. sorry guys

even god loves rock-n-roll


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 cnev
(@cnev)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 4478
 

Taso,

You finally nailed on the head. To me there just seemed to be an inordinate amount of just the standard "Nice job" when in fact there were things that definitely weren't alright and to me it seemed like people were just giving the posters lip service rather than real constructive criticism.

Part of that is like Maragret mentioned comes with building relationships etc., but that only goes so far since there are lot of people who have been on here awhile and I don't see the comments changing much.

Again I don't beleive telling someone that that stinks or I didn't like it helps much as those tend to be opinions especially if you are talking about critiquing lyrics and such.

The one reason I also posted my comment is because for the most part there are a core of people that are always here and in general everyone gets along well, in that case I think more honesty in our comments would be much more helpful than detremental and should be encouraged. even though I never posted anything and probably never will but you never know, I know if I did I wouldn't have a problem of all of you were critical, mainly because I know all of you all serious about your comments and are trying to help. Helping someone doesn't always mean telling them they did good.

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


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(@corbind)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 1744
 

I like the fact that the mods on this site keep it very clean. I don't know of any other guitar site doing that.

"Nothing...can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts."


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