At What Price Does It Become About Looks, Rarity, etc?

Hmmm...

* The most expensive are not always the most fun or best to play. It ain't about a money (for everyone). However, some people do indeed like nice, rare woods and quality cabinet maker finishes. These cost. Even kitsch can cost -- check out the "special edition" Gretsch and Martin acoustics that look like that contain about $10 worth of material and a funky "paint" job (cowboys, cowgrrls, Felix the Cat ...) Uniqueness costs due to economies of scale.

* Even "marginal" guitars can have musical value due to quirks of character which give them a special timbral characteristics.

* Don't overlook the differences between guitars for performance versus recording in timbre, looks (flashy dude!), durability, risk. This is one of the reason gigging and recording guitar player will own numerous axes.

* Set necks and hollow bodies are no longer necessarily more expensive than bolt-ons due to the very CNC technology you cite in your example. CNC machining is used extensively for many low and high end guitars. Check out Ibanez Artcores, Samicks and similar. Plenty of lower cost set neck and/or hollow body axes.

* Modding is a good reason to own -- at least temporarily -- many guitars. It's part of the fun.

Hi,

Great question, and one that can probably only be solved by buying lots of guitars and seeing if you can tell the difference or not. I'm on a scientific quest... 8)

I'm not experienced enough to go into a shop and have a quick try-out on a guitar and be able to tell everything about it. Sure I can get a first impression and sort the generally good from the obviously bad. But it might take me months to really discover how to bring the best of that instrument into line with the best that I can produce - if indeed I ever do get that far. It's more like a relationship with a partner or friend - you can get a good feeling from the early signs, but only time and experience will really tell the story.

Overall, it's a bit like cars. For not much money I can buy a car that will get me from A to B, do the speed limit, carry the family and generally do the job. It may even become a great favourite in spite of some shortcomings - or even partly because of some quirky imperfection.... :wink:

Or I can spent ten times as much on an exotic piece of machinery that will also get me from A to B and do the speed limit, will probably be less efficient at carrying the family and may even be less reliable. No possible way is it ten times better.... unless..... you really love something about it... The special way it sounds and looks, the way you sometimes unexpectedly end up going from A to Z when you set out to go from A to B, or whatever. Some folks find buying anything other than a purely functional car to be pointless or even ridiculous. But if you 'get' good cars then the sky's the limit. Guitar irrationality is pretty modest compared to car irrationality... Of course they're both put completely in the shade by the irrational way that we can fall in love with other people, but there can be similarities... :shock:

The way it seems to me is that modern manufacturing techniques can produce a very good guitar at a reasonable price. I avoid the real cheapies - at least I do now. When I started out I couldn't hear the difference between a mediocre pickup and a good one, or feel why a good neck was better than a clunky one. I can now, so I have a harder time believing the folk tale that you can score a great cheap guitar that's as good as an expensive one, if you get that 'lucky one' off the assembly line. But then the car I've most loved was worn out when I got it and cost all of $25. So you never know...

I guess it just boils down to how good's your ear, how developed are you skills, how fussy are you, how rich are you, and how badly are you affected when you fall in love with something for reasons that you can't always experess logically or mathematically? 8)

Cheers,

Chris

I've got more money than sense and more guitars than most. That should tell you something.

It's never about the looks, rarity, sound or feel to me. It's about the mojo.

Well, a pretty good question.

I myself am into Quality EVERYTHING.

I think that quality items last much longer and in the long run then, you end up spending less on something that's actually
dependable.

I'm not really one for status - just quality.
Which means....
Except for the year that I worked at the Chicago Board Of Trade, I have been a Bluecollar worker all my life.
I have been in workboots since my mid teens.
My first pair of boots, a pair of Redwings that I stole from my dad at about 14.
He had them nice and broke in by the time I got a hold of 'em. :D
Anyway, I've owned nothing but Redwings since then.
Now-a-days they go for about 150 -200 U.S. for the kind I use.
I just ordered a pair yesterday.
Including my dads - they will make my fourth pair of workboots only.
I'll be 38 in a couple months.

In that same time I've gone thru 2 U.S. Army field jackets and 1 Carhart that I currently wear.
And my first field jacket that I got when I was 12, was of course used.

There's a big difference to buying namebrand quality merchandise, and buying the most expensive thing you can find
just so you can lord it over your friends, family, & neighbors.

As far as guitars go -
I have my Strat American Standard.
...What would be the lowest model in the U.S. made arsenal.
It does everything I ask of it, had it for 20 years with no problems, and I know it inside out.
There's nothing special about it.
It's what Fender considers the continuation of the original Strat... from back in the days when there was only ONE Strat
to chose from.
The only options were a handful of colors back then.

To me, that's what a guitar needs to be -
The most rugged, well built model....
Minus all the extra junk that doesn't matter.

My Strat was my first real guitar, I got it when I was 18 and when I brought it home, my dad looked at it and said -
What a waste of money.
Shook his head and walked away.
Meaning that I paid 500 bucks in 88 for something that I was not going to learn how to play and would lose interest in
within months.

Well, that guitar is hanging on my frontroom wall with a broke in neck that has wear marks in the fretboard that match where MY fingers go, and has wonderfully yellowed plastic and I still play it (at least once a week).
My dad has since quit playing guitar and has graciously given me his Strat - a Beautiful 71 :twisted:

My philosophy is to buy a high end guitar right from the get go.
Not a very popular way to think around here.
Then again, I never did fit in anywhere :D

I mean, what does a new Strat cost????
For an American Standard today - around 1200 bucks.
How about a new MIM Strat????
About 650, right.

So you buy the MIM and decide that you wanna swap the pups because you hear that the pups are sub-standard to MIA's.
I'm not a real gear head so I'm gunna take a stab in the dark that having the pups swapped out at a music store'll run you
around 300 bucks.
Now you've got close to a Grand into a guitar that is a MIM with way too hot pickups.
You're close to the price of a MIA and you still haven't got the good body, as good of a neck, and your hardware still needs
to be upgraded.

And to be honest, better pups will only amplify any tonal problems that the guitar had in the first place.

I say, why go that route????

Some will say in rebuttal that used MIMs can be had for less than that.
Yeah, well so can used MIA's.

As I said, my philosophy is to own one or two quality, high-end guitars.
I see no need for anything more.
Why, the tonal variations you can get with just one Tele will keep you busy for quite some time.

I'm one of those sentimental types though, I rarely sell anything I have come to love or admire.
I'm very selective for just that reason.
Other people could care less about such things.
And that's cool.
That's what makes the world go 'round.

I know my way isn't the popular way, and that's okay by me.
You need to figure out what your way is.
If you wanna own 99 different lower end guitars - Great!
If you wanna have Two Higher end guitars - Cool.
The thing is, you have to try, experience, and be around high end guitars first in order to make up your mind.

Ken

ps -
I think that the 1200 buck stripped down American Strat is about as good as it gets.
Any more money than that will probably not get you a 'better' guitar. (As far as Strats go)
Unless you're talking about the American Vintage Series or actual Fender Custom Shop RI's of old year Fenders.
Which I like because I love Vintage Guitars and the materials and construction methods of old.
Not for everyone, I understand.

There's a big difference to buying namebrand quality merchandise, and buying the most expensive thing you can find
just so you can lord it over your friends, family, & neighbors.
Lots of good points, Ken, but I'll focus on this one.
I know from years working in photo and design: the 'prosumer' drives the market. Hobbyists who like the latest (or oldest) or greatest thing and will spend big determine a lot of price points even in the mid to high end range. No question in my mind, the guitar market is driven by the same forces.
So there will be gems lying at the bottom of the market (Squier 51) and top end gear that really is worth paying for (like your strat)...and higher priced stuff that's basically ka ka: http://forums.guitarnoise.com/viewtopic.php?t=35137

Don -

Yeah, I agree.
I think from the floor up to the basic MIA Strat (Speaking Fender only, as that's really all I know about :wink: ),
You get what you pay for.

Anything more IMO is just a waste of money.

Ken

waste of money is relative though...

I'm not rolling in cash, but if I want to go to NY I take Acela, yes it costs $50 more, but it saves me an hour. If I want to go out to eat, I go somewhere with good food and service, yes it may cost more than McDonald's but it tastes better too.

Could I make music on a cheap guitar? Yes I could.

I don't want to though.

And if spending my own hard earned money to get the nice guitar that I want makes me deliriously happy, and if playing a cheap guitar would leave me dissatisfied, well who is anyone to tell me that that is a waste?

Having money may not bring happiness, spending it sure helps though.

Some people find happiness in expensive cars, expensive bikes, or spending $50 per game playing Wii or Playstation. I just can't see it. But if it floats their boat, it isn't a waste.

What am I working for anyway?

As far as the thread question -

I really don't know what new guitars will be considered collectables in the future.

My 88 Strat cost 500 new.
I could sell for around 750 these days.
That doesn't mean that it's worth more though.
As a new Strat of the same model costs 1200.

On the other hand - the 71 is worth thousands!!!!
And brand new it cost a couple hundred.

My 88 Strat has been played quite a bit, and it really doesn't look it thanks to the tougher materials used on it.
Had it been a 50's RI - it would be in pretty bad shape by now.
Which actually makes the guitar worth more. (In most cases)

Will my 88 MIA Standard be collectable in the future.
Hard to say.
It does have it's quirks in design differences from the ones prior to it as well as the ones after it.
Will that be enough????

I think it will be the American Vintage series that will appreciate in value over time myself, as they have the American Standard quality, built with just enough of the 'old' ways to make them age well.

Ken

Nick -
Valid points :D

The question was though, at what point does the money spent, stop buying more quality.

And I told what I thought using ONLY FENDER guitars as my example.

I really don't think that the quality of a $12,000 Fender would be that much more than a $1200 Fender.

Acoustics on the other hand.....

Ken

true

I dunno. I would think that point could occur at a very low price. Probably a couple of hundred bucks.

Once you pass that point you are paying for scarcity of materials, luthier's time, and cache.

....and mojo.

It also depends a great deal on the type of guitar you're talking about.

If you're looking at a hollow-body jazz box, for example, there's a lot of hand work that go into high end models, and that gets real pricey, real fast. It is hard to find a good jazz box (in terms of sonic qualities) for under $1,000, and you really won't find one that doesn't compromise quality in some aspect for under $2k. But you can easily spend up to $20k on "name" luthiers. Somewhere around $10k it stops being about quality differences and starts being about name market value.

Now look at solid body bolt on neck guitars. These are largely machined. The dollar entry point for quality is somewhat lower, and the top end -- where you start paying for name recognition is much lower. The difference between a top end MIA Strat and a "signature" model is rarely significant.

It's still possible to pay a ton, but the top end is much lower.

For vintage guitars, it's almost always about scarcity and condition. But not always. At the Clapton auction a few years back, Clapton's '58 Gibson Korina Explorer went for $120k -- which is amazing since there were only 19 of these made . . . and any of them, let alone Clapton's would have fetched that much. Meanwhile, at the same auction, a '54 Strat hardtail went for $190k -- a guitar that can be purchased from any vintage dealer in any town for $2k. Amazing!

I think that the quality improvement for acoustics tends to level out at around $3000. But thats just my opinion. But the difference between a $100 and $300 guitar is far greater than the difference between a $1000 and $3000. The further up in price you go the more you pay for slight improvement.

I want to amend my statement

I've got more money than sense and not all that much money, and I have more guitars than most.

I just bought a CA COT.

I myself am into Quality EVERYTHING.

I think that quality items last much longer and in the long run then, you end up spending less on something that's actually
dependable.

SNIP

The thing is, you have to try, experience, and be around high end guitars first in order to make up your mind.

Ken

Hi Ken,

I'd agree about liking quality. I love it. But the problem is that there is no universal standard of what "quality" is. Any item can have many characteristics and qualities. Whether it's clothes or guitars you can be choosing between something that's delicate and beautiful but won't last long, something that's ugly and unstylish but looks feels and/or sounds great, or any combination of aspects. And newbies usually aren't equipped to judge what qualities will match the skills and preferences that they haven't developed yet. :?

As you say "you have to try, experience, and be around high end guitars first in order to make up your mind". How many kids get the chance to do that? There are hundreds of models of really good quality guitars. Even if you're lucky enough to live around musos with a big range of great gear to chose from (statistically pretty unlikely) you won't be able to play it well enough to make a choice based on your own style and abilities - because you won't have any yet. If a kid only ever has one guitar love and knows what it is from the start, then that's fine. But for the rest of us it pays to avoid the really low end junk, buy an inexpensive reasonable quality mid range instrument (big range to choose from now) and learn on that. Spending all your dough on a top end guitar that might be all wrong for you seems a very risky move. I'd say pay less and spend the rest on having at least a few lessons to get you started on the right tracks. Save for the good one once you know what will suit you, and why that quality is a match for you.

I think that Nick is right - the important difference is "Mojo". And while some brands or price ranges might be better places to start looking than others - you never really know exactly when and where you'll find it. Many equations have a handy "variable" or "unknown" - X if you like - that you insert to take care of all the things you don't know yet.

With guitars X= Mojo. And it's priceless. :wink:

Cheers,

Chris