Car commercial with SRV tune, anyone angry?

so who decides if it's art or not?
Like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. Who decides whether it's worth paying for, as well.

so who decides if it's art or not?
OK, so what is art?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZXOL-HUfWM

so who decides if it's art or not?

The same people who decide what is blue and what is not: nobody in specific and everybody in general. Personally I like to differentiate between 'artists' (people who make art) and 'artisans' (people who create or perform with skill or dexterity): most artists are artisans whereas only some artisans are artists. So what makes art art? To me there are a few different criteria, including:

1) A work of exceptional (relative to the time it was made) beauty. An example would be, for example, Pieta. Obviously only a few works can be considered exceptional, as it's a relative term.

2) A work of universal and timeless appeal. And example would be the Epic of Gilgamesh.

3) A work whose message being send is 'told' in such a way that it greatly enhances the story itself. An example would be the Homer's Iliad.

Obviously each criteria is very subjective. However, the way I look at it it is impossible to consider all music art. And as such not every musician is an artist. Also note that while an artist is a person who makes art, not every work of an artist is art. I think it's safe to say that many of the pieces Mozart wrote for the Church are more the musical equivalent of the baker's bread then actual pieces of art. However, since he did create other works that can be considered art he is an artist.

Richochet: not everything that's fake isn't art nor vica versa. Plenty of pieces of art (heck, probably all three mentioned above) were commisioned, one way or the other. As I said, it's impossible to have an artform without it's financial aspects. I think you misunderstood me. Or I didn't properly phrase my viewpoints. Or both. Heck, I haven't even gone into the differences between the English 'art' and the Dutch 'kunst'. The meaning of the concept behind the word 'art' has always been ambigious and dependant on the time and place of it's usage.

Sounds to me like we're pretty much in agreement, then. :D

Ignar Hillstrøm: So um, by your own definition, are you an artist? Will you tell us the secret code word to get into the club?

Yeah, this thread is like politics, religion, and sex, and maybe racism for good measure, all rolled into one, wars will probably be fought over this topic. I'm pretty confident that art is totally dependant on your point of view, is it a coincidence that art is the last three letters of fart, I doubt it, for whoopy cushion placement is the truest purest form of art, well, that and eleveator farts. I meant to tie that into the discussion somehow but I think I missed... CURSES!

i would echo what my art history prof said.
"art is what the "artist" says is art, everything else is opinion.
only the artist has the power to label a creation art, regardless of what it ends up being used as, or for."

the example given to every first year student was a stool sat up on a table with an apple on it.
the question posed to the class was "is this art?"

Twisted: exactly what my Art History prof told me. The problem is that it's a self-defining definition: art is the product of an artist, and an artist is the producer of art. I think that, ultimately, there is no better linguistic definition of the word art, or artist, yet it also makes the word 'art' as hollow and meaningless as can be: everything and nothing is art, and even that is open to change at every single second. Which is why I use further criteria. Most modern abstract works are art because of the third criteria. It's not the skill or beauty but the message that's being send. As such you might consider people like Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen artists, but someone like the Venga "Boom boom boom boom I want you in my room" Boys not. Still not perfect but atleast there is actually some meaning given to the word 'art'.
Ignar Hillstrøm: So um, by your own definition, are you an artist?

I dont know, and I dont really care. Art isnt better or worse then anything else, like blue isn't better or worse then yellow. I'm pretty sure the first two criteria don't apply to my music. I think my last little project is a good example of what might apply for the third criteria even though absolutely noone got it. But I think that if there were someone who could speak Dutch, Romanian, Russian and Arabian, while having some basic knowledge of both 20th century European history and current world politics that person might appreciate the message behind it more then were it just stated literally.
Will you tell us the secret code word to get into the club?
This is precisely the problem I was referring to in my first post. :roll:

I try not to allow myself to apply too much psychology or search for too much meaning in things of the "Artists" realm. Print media, Music, Performance Art, whatever.
I used to be a lot snobbier but age has brought on a bit more patience and open mindedness.(i know it's usually the opposite)

This is the mistake i think a lot of people make when judging opinion about art by knee jerk reaction.
There is a lot of value to the "you either like it or you don't" category , and most probably fall into that group, But I feel that you miss out on some really good stuff.

back to the point of the topic,
imo, anything that exposes more people to "ART" is a good thing in the long run. It's about getting your work out there.
the showcase that facilitates more exposure is only the "stage du jour" and the term "sellout" has more to say about the source of the utterance then the Art itself.
Art itself cannot be "cheapened" merely because of the venue it's viewed in. This is the realm of opinion and does not affect the art itself.
If it "pisses you off" that Music you held dear is being presented in a light or method that offends your sensibilities, i would suggest you try not to observe it. (change the channel, or look the other way.)
The artists should not sell their wares or enter into contracts if they don't want their creations used to turn a profit.

This is the era we live in now and the music of my youth is finally being used to advertise the products of the day.
I Love it.

interesting discussion.

I saw an interview on 60 minutes last night where the interviewer asked Roy Bittan and Steve Van Zandt of the E street band if they cringe every time they have to play "Born to Run"

"It's funny you said that because I was watching something on TV. And it was Tony Bennett. And they asked Tony Bennett, 'Aren't you tired of singing I Left My Heart In San Francisco?' And his answer was, 'It gave me the keys to the world,'" Bittan says. "Well there it is, that's it."

"I figure if we do a few more tours I might actually learn it," van Zandt says, laughing. "So, you know. I mean, we live in hope, right?"

So I think if the artists see their own music as a stepping stone or key or dinner or putting the kids through school, then I'm happy to see their music in commercials.

Now the what is art discussion reminds me a bit of the one we had regarding turntablists as musicians. It's still hard for me to swallow but I suppose they are, they arrange, compose, play the turntable as an instrument, express emotion, move people, create new sounds and entertain.

So what is art? It all is. Maybe not to you, maybe not to me, but IMHO that is irrelevant. Everything has the potential to be art. As someone on another board has in their signature, slightly paraphrased, "You can polish crap if you freeze it first." Moose droppings to you and me, a beautiful necklace/piece of art to someone else.

There was an usher in the church I attended as a kid who wore a kidney stone he'd passed in a tie tack with his Sunday suit. He was proud of that thing, and given the effort involved in passing it, he was entitled. It was pretty cool looking, too. Downright artsy.
:D

Well that and wearing a tie tack made out of his own droppings would be too damn big for the tie.

By the way Blue is way cooler than Yellow.

Great, now I don't know what art is, AND I don't know when someone is an artist, thanks a lot.

That polished turd don't look half bad, I never realized there was a literal meaning to the phrase.

By the way Blue is way cooler than Yellow.
Red! I want red, there's no substitute for red.
Red! Paint it red, green ain't mean compared to red.

By the way Blue is way cooler than Yellow.
Red! I want red, there's no substitute for red.
Red! Paint it red, green ain't mean compared to red.
I wanna see it painted, painted black
Black as night, black as coal
I wanna see the sun blotted out from the sky
I wanna see it painted, painted, painted, painted black

Yes, but yellow is smarter than blue.